What features would you like to see in a mixer?

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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby Andy Hamm » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:50 pm

Razor wrote:Control surface no bigger than a laptop? I imagine it'd only have 8 faders then.


Well, since it will be fitting onto the stagebox, lets just consider it to be a 19" wide laptop, the same width as a rackmount mixer. That should leave enough space for 14 faders plus a trackball type pointing device.

I just don't want a big behemouth FOH console, so that there will never be a problem of not being able to set ip up whereever you may want to. I would like the entire package to be able to fit in the overhead compartment of an airplane, in the back of a compact rental car, or anywhere else that space would be limited when traveling.
When I came home late last night.....
The wife left a note on the fridge:
"It's not working, I can't take it anymore!!
Gone to stay with my Mother."
I opened the fridge, the light came on, and the beer was cold.........
What the hell is she talking about??????
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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby Razor » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:26 pm

Andy Hamm wrote:I want it to be in two parts, a stage box and a remote FOH mixer like the iLive.

Ideally the stage box should be a small 3-4U package and support at lease 24 inputs, and at least 12 outs. The FOH control portion should be no bigger than a laptop, and should do nothing more than control the stage box. It should connect via Ethernet or wirelessly to the stage box and be no bigger than a laptop. It should have a control surface a pointing device and an LCD screen. There should be control over the input gains, pads and phantom power remotely from FOH.

The FOH control portion, should be somehow attached to the stage box for trasport in a small, compact package.

Wireless control for tablets are remotes should be web based, so it is not platform dependant. You should be able to connect with an iPad, Android powered device, Windows or Linux based computer.

Outputs should be able to be used as either stereo outs, or as invidual, independant mono outs. This would enable the mixer to have a L/C/R configuration, a seperate subwoofer output and 8 mono monitor mixes in a small package. The unit should also have the processing capability to filter the audio sent through these outputs so they can be used as a system processor / crossover.

It should deploy quickly - plug in your mic inputs, your outputs, configure the system profile and you should be ready to start with a soundcheck.

It should be able to record all of the inputs and play them back for virtual sound checks, etc.

Battery back up, networking capabilities and everything you need should be contained in the stage box. Other than your basic I/O, there should be nothing other than a power cord to plug in.

24 ins/ 12 out package should be under $2000.00


You should check out the Roland V-mixer series of consoles. Uses either a couple of 4U 16x8 stage boxes or an 8U 32x8 box (modular, so you can customize inputs and outputs). Only a single ethernet cable between the stage box and mixer, and then power cables for both the surface and the stage boxes. The mixer has an LCD screen that shows you all of the parameters. The surface has control over gain, pad, phantom power. While they don't attach to each other, the M-300 and M-380 are both rack-mountable as are the stage boxes. Wireless control is limited to Windows and Mac, no linux support, no android support. iPad/iPhone control limited to just the flagship model (M-480). Supports L/C/R (including either true LCR or L/R+mono), can use one of 16 mono auxes for subwoofer or IEM sends. Requires two AUXes for stereo. Has up to 4 GEQs that can be assigned to any output, can also be switched to 8-band PEQs with HPFs.

But, cost will be $8,000+ even for 24 inputs.
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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby gdougherty » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:08 pm

Andy Hamm wrote:
Razor wrote:Control surface no bigger than a laptop? I imagine it'd only have 8 faders then.


Well, since it will be fitting onto the stagebox, lets just consider it to be a 19" wide laptop, the same width as a rackmount mixer. That should leave enough space for 14 faders plus a trackball type pointing device.

I just don't want a big behemouth FOH console, so that there will never be a problem of not being able to set ip up whereever you may want to. I would like the entire package to be able to fit in the overhead compartment of an airplane, in the back of a compact rental car, or anywhere else that space would be limited when traveling.


I think what you want is mostly covered by the smaller iLive setups. Bonus is that you can have your tiny console and somebody that wants a full-sized control surface can have it too. In fact, an ilive mix rack and the mix software on a laptop would meet your needs for $7-8K. Considering everything it'll do, that's a nice bargain compared to most alternatives.
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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby RBIngraham » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:53 pm

Well making a complete and comprehensive list of all features would actually be a hell of a lot of work. I've written the equivelent of an architect's specification for software products. Trust me, it takes a lot of time to do it right.

So I will just give a few main points, assuming anything these days will have the basics like 4 bands or more of EQ and Dynamics on every input and output, etc...

1. Scene Control - that can work like a cue sheet, allows multiple scenes with fade times to run simultaneously, and the scenes can easilly be controlled by some sort of simple trasnport on the console, plus accept both standard Musical MIDI commands (i.e. program change, MIID notes, etc..) MIDI Show Control and MIDI Timecode inputs for the triggering of scenes without the need for some intermediary software or hardware to handle the show control aspects.

2. Full Client Server connections between the UI and the Audio Engine. So that multiple users can all log in and completely customize their UI for what their job requies. This would include software remotes that run on both Mac and Windows and full crossplatform support for tablet remotes as well. From as much as I've seen the only ones that get this right in my book is Allen and Heath and Meyer's Dmitiri (but that's such an expensive beast that it's hardly in the same leage as most digital console except for the most expensive Digico)

3. Full Matrix routing for all inputs to outputs with time allignment delays at every input, every output and every crosspoint in the matrix.

4. Typical DCA behavior as is implemented in most Yamahas and others that actually have DCAs, Any volume control point in the entire console should be able to be assigned, input faders, output faders, any sort of bus faders, even aux send faders from individual channel strips, etc.. They should be virtual and unlimited so you never run out of DCAs and easilly resassign using Scenes. If there must be a limit on their number it should be something ridiculously high like 128 or 256 or something like that.

5. Control surfaces should be modular and come in all shapes and sizes and attache directly to the computer network so they act just like another client that logs into the server.

6. I/O modules should be completely modular and sit on a simple computer network, with Dante being the most likely candidate for data transmission to and from each node. Preamp input gains should be able to be recalled via Scenes and have a control built right into the UI of the console.


Oh and I want all this to cost no more than a Yamaha LS9-16 or maybe a Behringer. :lol:
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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby Razor » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:01 am

RBIngraham wrote:Well making a complete and comprehensive list of all features would actually be a hell of a lot of work. I've written the equivelent of an architect's specification for software products. Trust me, it takes a lot of time to do it right.

So I will just give a few main points, assuming anything these days will have the basics like 4 bands or more of EQ and Dynamics on every input and output, etc...

1. Scene Control - that can work like a cue sheet, allows multiple scenes with fade times to run simultaneously, and the scenes can easilly be controlled by some sort of simple trasnport on the console, plus accept both standard Musical MIDI commands (i.e. program change, MIID notes, etc..) MIDI Show Control and MIDI Timecode inputs for the triggering of scenes without the need for some intermediary software or hardware to handle the show control aspects.

2. Full Client Server connections between the UI and the Audio Engine. So that multiple users can all log in and completely customize their UI for what their job requies. This would include software remotes that run on both Mac and Windows and full crossplatform support for tablet remotes as well. From as much as I've seen the only ones that get this right in my book is Allen and Heath and Meyer's Dmitiri (but that's such an expensive beast that it's hardly in the same leage as most digital console except for the most expensive Digico)

3. Full Matrix routing for all inputs to outputs with time allignment delays at every input, every output and every crosspoint in the matrix.

4. Typical DCA behavior as is implemented in most Yamahas and others that actually have DCAs, Any volume control point in the entire console should be able to be assigned, input faders, output faders, any sort of bus faders, even aux send faders from individual channel strips, etc.. They should be virtual and unlimited so you never run out of DCAs and easilly resassign using Scenes. If there must be a limit on their number it should be something ridiculously high like 128 or 256 or something like that.

5. Control surfaces should be modular and come in all shapes and sizes and attache directly to the computer network so they act just like another client that logs into the server.

6. I/O modules should be completely modular and sit on a simple computer network, with Dante being the most likely candidate for data transmission to and from each node. Preamp input gains should be able to be recalled via Scenes and have a control built right into the UI of the console.


Oh and I want all this to cost no more than a Yamaha LS9-16 or maybe a Behringer. :lol:


256 DCAs? Wow lol I can't even think of uses for 8 of them.
Last edited by Razor on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby RBIngraham » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:07 pm

Razor wrote:
256 DCAs? Wow lol I can't even think of uses 8 of them.


I just said that so one would never run out. But I use a hell of a lot more than 8 all the time. One of my biggest complaints about the stupid M7, it only has 8 DCA groups and you can not assigne them to an output and you don't have custom fader layer like every other Yamaha desk from the past 10 years has.

So whenever I end up with an M7 I have to play games using rack with the EQ bypassed so loop signal back around to inputs so I can get teh controls I need. Total pain in the ass.

I use the full 16 Latch Group outputs in SAC all the time. Although sometimes I use them as Subs as well, but frankly that is mostly to work around the fact that they are not really DCAs in SAC, just fader latching.

Also I'm thinking from the perspective of multiple clients (or users) all logged into a server. What if my 16 DCAs need to be different from someone else's 16 DCAs, etc... then the total number of DCA's needed can add up pretty quick if you think about maybe giving each user 24 DCA groups each.
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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby Razor » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:37 pm

RBIngraham wrote:
Razor wrote:
256 DCAs? Wow lol I can't even think of uses 8 of them.


I just said that so one would never run out. But I use a hell of a lot more than 8 all the time. One of my biggest complaints about the stupid M7, it only has 8 DCA groups and you can not assigne them to an output and you don't have custom fader layer like every other Yamaha desk from the past 10 years has.

So whenever I end up with an M7 I have to play games using rack with the EQ bypassed so loop signal back around to inputs so I can get teh controls I need. Total pain in the ass.

I use the full 16 Latch Group outputs in SAC all the time. Although sometimes I use them as Subs as well, but frankly that is mostly to work around the fact that they are not really DCAs in SAC, just fader latching.

Also I'm thinking from the perspective of multiple clients (or users) all logged into a server. What if my 16 DCAs need to be different from someone else's 16 DCAs, etc... then the total number of DCA's needed can add up pretty quick if you think about maybe giving each user 24 DCA groups each.


Yeah I've never had the need to submix because I'm never really working with more than 16 channels at a time.

The idea of a client/server setup for mixing is a completely foreign concept to me, since I've never experienced multiple people mixing the same show.
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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby RBIngraham » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:55 am

Razor wrote:
Yeah I've never had the need to submix because I'm never really working with more than 16 channels at a time.

The idea of a client/server setup for mixing is a completely foreign concept to me, since I've never experienced multiple people mixing the same show.


LOL.... OK.. 16 channels is nothing in my book. :)

It's not hard for me to have more than 16 channels of wireless mics alone and that doesn't count, orchestra pit, area mics, playback tracks, offstage vocal booth feeds, talkback mics, etc, etc, etc.... I regularly have 50+ inputs in my SAC system by all is said and done.

Take a look at how SAC works. That is basically a client/server relationship between the SAC host machine running the audio engine and SAC remotes, which are basically a client signing into a server.

Most concerts have multiple people mixing a show. One mixing FOH and another mixing monitors. Traditionally you would just have two seperate mix consoles, one for each person and then you split the mic feeds to both consoles. Now days you can have a single system that is doing all the mixing and just have two stations that are basically operating the same hardware. That is basically what happens with a SAC system, but it is not the only system that allows for that to happen. Most of the others just cost a lot more.
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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby Razor » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:05 am

RBIngraham wrote:
Razor wrote:
Yeah I've never had the need to submix because I'm never really working with more than 16 channels at a time.

The idea of a client/server setup for mixing is a completely foreign concept to me, since I've never experienced multiple people mixing the same show.


LOL.... OK.. 16 channels is nothing in my book. :)

It's not hard for me to have more than 16 channels of wireless mics alone and that doesn't count, orchestra pit, area mics, playback tracks, offstage vocal booth feeds, talkback mics, etc, etc, etc.... I regularly have 50+ inputs in my SAC system by all is said and done.

Take a look at how SAC works. That is basically a client/server relationship between the SAC host machine running the audio engine and SAC remotes, which are basically a client signing into a server.

Most concerts have multiple people mixing a show. One mixing FOH and another mixing monitors. Traditionally you would just have two seperate mix consoles, one for each person and then you split the mic feeds to both consoles. Now days you can have a single system that is doing all the mixing and just have two stations that are basically operating the same hardware. That is basically what happens with a SAC system, but it is not the only system that allows for that to happen. Most of the others just cost a lot more.


See that's part of the reason I started this thread, my experience with sound is pretty narrow, and I wanted to see what kind of features would be nice for people mixing in different environments than me.

It's funny, a lot of the suggestions/desires I'm seeing here are already present in the Roland V-mixer series. I think I take some of the features it offers for granted sometimes. The M-480 has scene fade (something I really wish the the other v-mixers had), and supports remote control from a computer or iPad/iPhone. Delay on every input and output, can assign any input to any of 8 matrix outputs. 24 DCAs with typical DCA behavior (I believe), can assign outputs to them.

My only gripes about the M-400/480 are related to the UI of the LCD display. That and I really wish it had a master fader bank. It has a separate main fader for Main L/C/R, but to get to the AUXes, matrices or DCAs, I have to change layers. The user layer helps with that though. Actually, you get 3 user layers. Sometimes I use them, other times I don't.

As far as layout, just based on what I've seen, I really like the Soundcraft Vi4 and 6. A screen for each fader bank, encoders for each channel, 8-fader master fader bank. And while unrelated to layout, I also really like that the Vi series has assignable busses. So you can make a bus into an AUX, a matrix, or a subgroup. Which I love because I have a lot more use for AUXes than I do for matrices or subgroups.

My ideal mixer would always have a control surface, with at least 24 faders (motorized). Also, I know some people like the fact that SAC has only faders and no knobs, but knobs just make sense to me.

I like that SAC makes use of your computer for processing instead of relying on some proprietary expensive processing unit. That's probably the thing I like about it most of all.
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Re: What features would you like to see in a mixer?

Postby Andy Hamm » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:14 pm

I think that there are lots of options available to soundcos and installed venues, but there is very little quality gear aimed at techs that do walk in shows. We can't carry around a big mixer case, what we need is a 24 channel swiss army knife that we can pull out on an as needed case. It needs to be as small and compact as possible while still maintaining a reasonable level of usability.

If it would double as an aviom type system that could be used at every show, all the better. But for the most part, it will only get used when you walk into a gig and find out you are otherwise screwed.
When I came home late last night.....
The wife left a note on the fridge:
"It's not working, I can't take it anymore!!
Gone to stay with my Mother."
I opened the fridge, the light came on, and the beer was cold.........
What the hell is she talking about??????
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