Recalling Fader Levels of Group Latch Outputs

Reports of bugs, possible bugs, and other flaws found in SAC

Recalling Fader Levels of Group Latch Outputs

Postby RBIngraham » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:45 pm

So I suspect this probably wouldn't be considered a bug, but Recalling a Scene that Targets Group Latch Output faders in SAC will only move the fader of the Group Output... and NOT the faders of the input that are assigned to it. This has what to me at least if a very undesirable effect of 1. not getting the level changes you were expecting to happen and more importantly 2. Now the faders out of proportion to each other, so you have to play games to get them all back in alignment... not a lot of fun while the show is going on at the same time.

I post this here mostly in the hopes that it will cause me to remember this in the future because I'm sure this wasn't the first time this one bit me in the ass. :roll:
Richard B. Ingraham
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Re: Recalling Fader Levels of Group Latch Outputs

Postby airickess » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:18 pm

I believe I just confirmed the behavior you described.
I set up three scenes in a test mix session. Scene 1 has faders 1-5 assigned to Group Latch 9 and Group Latch 9 is assigned as a Group Latch fader, not an output fader. All 6 faders are set to unity gain.
Scene 2 moves only Group Latch 9 fader down all the way.
So in this scene faders 1-5 stay at unity, and if the Group Latch fader is grabbed by the mouse and brought up, it brings up all assigned input faders proportionately, which is not good at all.
Scene 3 moves only Group Latch 9 fader back up to unity. It does not move any of the input faders.

What I found while building these scenes is that regardless of the faders assigned to the Group Latch fader, each individual input fader can still be moved to unity independently by using the Ctrl+Left Click on either the Z Mixer or F Mixer. BUT, if the Group Latch fader is down and Ctrl+Left Click is used on the Group Latch fader then it will bring up all faders assigned to it when it comes up.
This unusual behavior of the output fader when selected as a Group Latch fader is the reason I never use them as Group Latch faders, but instead assign the fader to one of the output faders 1-8. This can be impractical when there are more than one stereo pair of outputs used (because these stupid faders cannot be assigned to individual outputs) so when I end up having a situation where I'm using output faders for mains, front fills, subs and delays, I've used auxiliary output faders as group faders rather than the group latch output faders because the AUX faders are assignable to outputs.
This is where a matrix feed can be extremely helpful. This is also a situation where these Group Latch faders 9-24 should act more like DCAs rather than their odd default behavior currently programmed.
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Re: Recalling Fader Levels of Group Latch Outputs

Postby gdougherty » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:40 pm

Alt-drag is what allows the group latch to move independent of the channels in the group. Group latches are just a master fader that moves channels relative to where they are. If you assign the same channel to an output bus 1-8 it works as a traditional subgroup.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

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Re: Recalling Fader Levels of Group Latch Outputs

Postby RBIngraham » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:21 am

Yes Erik, if the Group Latches just worked like a traditional VCA/DCA Group, all of this would be a moot point and SAC would be 10 times better of a product in my opinion. If these worked like real DCA groups, then you really could use the monitor mixers like matrix mixers. As it stands now, I still use them that way. You just have to be really careful about what you're doing.

What I have been doing a lot lately is chewing up Aux Send/Return channel, using those as Submixes. Then I can take those feeds to another mixer and use the outputs on the monitor mixers as a matrix output system. The drawback to this of course is that then if I want to apply reverb or some other effects like that, I can not do that with the channels that are submixed down to an Aux Send/Return because you can not route one Aux to another Aux. So I have to pick and choose what I want to do.

Using Output 9-24 as Submaster is OK for me sometimes as well. One of my biggest issues is that 8 stereo outputs is not enough outs for me on larger sound systems, not even enough to properly do just the house speakers. For example I am using SAC as our mixer and system processor at Idaho Shakespeare this summer. That system has 19 outputs (Or 8 stereo pairs plus a mono sub feed and 2 other feeds which can not be operated as a stereo pair) just for the mains and surround speakers. That doesn't count any on stage speakers, hearing impaired feeds, etc.... So it can not just all live on the FOH mixer with it's 8 mono or stereo outputs. :(

Or if he just did the custom fader layer he promised that would solve my issues as well. Then I could just drop in any channel strip I like from any mixer I wanted and put that on a handle on a control surface.

Either of those are workable solutions for what makes me grumble when working with SAC. I don't really care which one, he only had to do one of those two things and it would make at least 50% of my complaints about SAC disappear.
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Re: Recalling Fader Levels of Group Latch Outputs

Postby jlepore » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:08 am

Sorry .. you just have to embrace the new way of working (put your production requirements aside) ....

After all, HUNDREDS of other non-working engineers are doing it too ... :lol:
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