Heresy of Heresies

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Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:04 pm

Sac 4.00 looks like a bust, but the montarbo Stages box looks great. Supposedly this thing is going to be a Madi interface with Ethernet control. Think there's any chance of this working with amp? Even if montarbo doesn't release the control specifications, since its over Ethernet it shouldn't be that hard to sniff out, right?
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby Jeffsco » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:31 pm

Brent...just curious...what were your expectations for SAC 4.0 that you conclude it's a bust? I've read your posts and back and forth with Bob L. Outside of the Touch / Tablet issues....what functionality were you hoping to see.

Not trying to stir the pot.....just curious...
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby Craig » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:25 pm

I'm not Brent, but it just seems buggy as hell to me. Increased loads, more slipped buffers. I have no plans to upgrade at this time.
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Core 2 Duo running XP with RME Digiface and ADA8000's
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby Butch » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:20 pm

I have used it for 5 shows now (SAC 4) no major problems but I am not using anything but 1 motormix
My load only up about 2% I did find a couple of things but the monitor view works great for me.
The slipping buffers are not causing any audible problems and I have faith :roll: :horse: Bob will figure it out :?:

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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:28 pm

The tablet issues are enough. They're bad enough to cause a major snafu doing a show, and when I detailed the bug for him, I got accused of being a thief. Bad move.

His solution for recording stems is really janky... To get 8 stems, you have to use a monitor mixer, which makes programming changes twice as hard.

Add to that that it's buggy on some systems and not others, and he doesn't know why... Fooey on that.

There are a lot of things I like about SAC. The 24 mixer paradigm is great.. The way he handles the eq and Levelizer plugs are great. If amp had just those plugs, and some method of recording, id be happy. As it stands, the tool kit looks good, that would make it great.

One reason I like the eq plug paradigm is I can keep feedback reduction presets for each monitor and microphone I own and quickly stack them up depending on the show. Each one might only have one or two notches, but it really makes setting up monitors fast. On nearly every show the talent complains that my monitors are too loud. That's what you call a good complaint.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby Jeffsco » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:53 pm

BrentEvans wrote: On nearly every show the talent complains that my monitors are too loud. That's what you call a good complaint.


Yes...that is a good complaint :mrgreen:
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BobP » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:36 pm

>> The way he handles the eq and Levelizer plugs are great. If amp had just those plugs, and some method of recording, id be happy. As it stands, the tool kit looks good, that would make it great.

Brent,

Why would you want a plugin when the channel strip already has that built-in? You can copy / paste them if you want... Even just right-click and copy from source, and right-click and paste on destination... What a concept! :-)

How many tracks do you want to record?

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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby Butch » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:08 pm

Do you guys really like mixing on a Ipad or tablet every time I use one I can't mix very smooth I am always moving to far or not enough my fingers get slightly sticky on the touch screen same to a much smaller amount with a mouse
I use the arrow keys the most when mixing after the show is set up
The new touch view works ok on my Asus tablet but I still use the keys
I just mixed a show on a Soundcraft Expression using an Ipad since the mixer was at the stage and I just could not be as smooth as I want to be and the wifi dropped out twice at least unlike SAC it reconnected easy. I also work in a venue where the system is ONLY controlled with an Ipad (LS9 hidden in an office) it sucks to be quite frank.
Oh well to each his own :)
Moving from Large Soundcraft analogue to a keyboard and mouse (and a 8ch pack) was enough of a slow down just can't move down to an I something
Had to mix a show on a Mackie the other night and don't want to go back to analogue again either I missed the good eq and and only had 2 comp chs the band really needed more help than that and don't even get me started on the built in effects ;)

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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:52 pm

BobP wrote:>> The way he handles the eq and Levelizer plugs are great. If amp had just those plugs, and some method of recording, id be happy. As it stands, the tool kit looks good, that would make it great.

Brent,

Why would you want a plugin when the channel strip already has that built-in? You can copy / paste them if you want... Even just right-click and copy from source, and right-click and paste on destination... What a concept! :-)

I keep a library of settings for each microphone on each speaker. I have three or four different types of monitors and mains and lots of mic options. The first time I ring out mic X on speaker Y, I make a plugin preset of ONLY those feedback points. When I buy a monitor (or use one) I do a base EQ to make it sound awesome. I've built up a library of thirty or so most used combinations which i can patch in as I go. When I go to set up a monitors on my system, it goes something like this:

i'm using a Yamaha CM12V wedge so I patch a base shaping EQ preset for that monitor called "CM12V Base". Monitor now sounds awesome with playback. I'm using Sennheiser 835 vocal mics, so I patch the "CM12V S835" preset All of the ring points for 835s are now gone. I'm using Samson C02 instrument micas, so I patch the "CM12V SCO2" preset. All of those ring points gone. I'm using a Da Cappo headset, patch "CM12V Da06," rings gone.

Next monitor wedge is a PAS 12. Patch "PAS 12 Base." Sounds great. Patch "PAS12 S835,"..... etc.

This takes about 2 mins per monitor wedge. Nothing rings, everything on stage sounds awesome, I almost never get a complaint after I set up their mix the first time. This workflow is fast, effective, and has been working for me for 3 years. I've built up presets for most of my mics and wedges. If I take a mic off the stage, i can remove its feedback points ONLY, or QUICKLY add a new set mid show if I need to. A simple copy and paste isn't enough to do that.

For the compressor plug, I've built up multi stage compressors to automate my recording mixes. I get VERY nice mixes for streaming feeds, CD recording, etc, which are perfectly compressed and limited with several stages of the built in compressor plug. It works great.

How many tracks do you want to record?,

It varies. On many shows I have 2 record feeds set up, one mastered for speech, the other for music. I typically do this on SAC Mix 24, mostly set post fader with minor tweaks. I use submasters on that mix to do group compression when needed. When it comes time to cut a master CD I cut and paste between the two mixes and the CD, usually comes out nice. It's a manual process though, since it's 2 instantiations of a plugin which have to be started and stopped separately, and max out at about 4 hours of record time, and the recording isn't saved if you hit the max and shut down SAC without clicking a button that's hid behind the SAC window. What would be nice is to be able to have syncronized recording accross all active inputs and outputs, selectable for each one in a simple matrix view (ie. record this, dont' record that, with preset save capability), and controlled with a single transport. In practice, I've never needed more than four or five stems... but I've never access to even that many. There's too much drift between instantiations of the Tapeit plug to be useful. The problem with the way SAC 4 does it is that you can record 8 outputs to SAW, but only O1-O8 on each mixer can be recorded. that means if you want to do stems (which are typically done with O9-O16) you have to pass them along to a master out. If you want to do 8 on your FOH mix so they'll track changes to the stem busses, you're out of luck. You'll have to offload at least one to a monitor mixer (you lose a recordable stem on the FOH mix with every extra output, such as a sub mix or surround mix, etc), which then has to be updated as you change stem assignments. The ladder is broken on a very high rung, but it's broken nonetheless. Then... you have to buy a $1200 full featured program to do any recording at all. That's bogus.

So... that's my gripe. For a program that descended from a DAW, it's really poorly designed in that area.

Now... here's a novel idea to tie the two together. Create a plug patch point at multiple points along each channel (pre and post each processing session) which could host a GEQ or PEQ plug, compression plug, reverb plug, delay plug, etc (all your own, no need to incorporate VST for these, you have most of the code already). Then... add a plug for recording. All the recording plugs are synchronized into a transport... heck... you could have multiple transport instantiations and have them selectable per plug instantiation... that would be super cool. Having flexible points to plug in stuff would be awesome.

Also... since I did a show on the X32 last week, this is in my head... a RTA graph superimposed on any PEQ and GEQ instance (built in or plugged in) is really cool. No need to juggle two windows that way... and having a side chain input for the RTA would be cool so you can see either the bus or a measurement mic (or both?!).

So... that's my wish list... LOL. I'll probably be sending you some money within a couple of weeks anyway... but there you go.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby RBIngraham » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:52 pm

Those Montarbo stage boxes do look interesting. However, unless they are just cutting many corners I bet they will not be inexpensive. What are they? 32x32? That will have to cost some bucks and then you need something with MADI I/O. I wonder how many typical SAC users will spring for something like that. As much as I like mixing on a software console for it's superior routing abilities, when the package starts to cost as much as say a Yamaha QL or CL with some stage boxes... one has to wonder who will buy that rather that what I would call an actual "works right out of the box unit". And even with that you still have to set up a Dante network, which takes time.
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SAC details and goodies at: http://www.rbicompaudio.20m.com/SAC.html
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