Heresy of Heresies

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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:54 pm

Butch wrote:Do you guys really like mixing on a Ipad or tablet every time I use one I can't mix very smooth I am always moving to far or not enough my fingers get slightly sticky on the touch screen same to a much smaller amount with a mouse
I use the arrow keys the most when mixing after the show is set up
The new touch view works ok on my Asus tablet but I still use the keys
I just mixed a show on a Soundcraft Expression using an Ipad since the mixer was at the stage and I just could not be as smooth as I want to be and the wifi dropped out twice at least unlike SAC it reconnected easy. I also work in a venue where the system is ONLY controlled with an Ipad (LS9 hidden in an office) it sucks to be quite frank.
Oh well to each his own :)
Moving from Large Soundcraft analogue to a keyboard and mouse (and a 8ch pack) was enough of a slow down just can't move down to an I something
Had to mix a show on a Mackie the other night and don't want to go back to analogue again either I missed the good eq and and only had 2 comp chs the band really needed more help than that and don't even get me started on the built in effects ;)

Butch


It's good for tweaks and monitor mixes. On outdoor shows, I keep something to walk out from under the tent. Always to walk up on stage and tweak... but to mix a whole show? it's a bit cumbersome. Various ones work better than others. The X32 Mixing Station app (not designed by Behringer) is quite usable on android tabs to mix a whole show... did that the other night. Allen & Heath's apps are pretty good too. The soundcraft app is a bit cumbersome and the LS9 app is, ahem... not great.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:00 pm

RBIngraham wrote:Those Montarbo stage boxes do look interesting. However, unless they are just cutting many corners I bet they will not be inexpensive. What are they? 32x32? That will have to cost some bucks and then you need something with MADI I/O. I wonder how many typical SAC users will spring for something like that. As much as I like mixing on a software console for it's superior routing abilities, when the package starts to cost as much as say a Yamaha QL or CL with some stage boxes... one has to wonder who will buy that rather that what I would call an actual "works right out of the box unit". And even with that you still have to set up a Dante network, which takes time.


Maybe they'll be expensive, maybe not. The parts really don't cost that much. Stageboxes are surely quite profitable for the big boys... chips are cheap in quantity and there really aren't that many chips in them. There's at least a 20% margin on some of them, just at the retail level. The OEM is surely making 25% or more on top of that... an OEM selling direct like Montarbo will be will either be quite affordable or gouging... there won't be much in the middle of that.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby RBIngraham » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:09 pm

Huh? Sorry Brent, I just don't buy that all the stage boxes that are out there cost what they do simply because of price gouging. Granted the Yamaha units are all Dante so you are paying for that license fee to audinate. But even the MADI stuff is not cheap. The Behringer stuff is the cheapest... of course... but even that is about $900 for a 16x8 and then your stuck with their worthless AES50 crap. Worthless of course unless you have their mixers.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:17 pm

RBIngraham wrote:Huh? Sorry Brent, I just don't buy that all the stage boxes that are out there cost what they do simply because of price gouging. Granted the Yamaha units are all Dante so you are paying for that license fee to audinate. But even the MADI stuff is not cheap. The Behringer stuff is the cheapest... of course... but even that is about $900 for a 16x8 and then your stuck with their worthless AES50 crap. Worthless of course unless you have their mixers.


I based my numbers on what a certain major brand of stagebox (mentioned in this thread) costs me wholesale. Can't spit out numbers... MAP policies and all that... but there is a 18% margin between what I pay the distributor and MAP. I assume the distributor gets a piece (2-5% maybe) and the manufacturer surely is making at least 20-25% on it, maybe more. It's not price gouging, it's normal cost structure for gear. Everybody takes their cut in the supply chain. The Montarbo stuff, though, doesn't seem to be going through typical distribution. If they sell it direct (or sign up just about anybody as a wholesaler like many companies trying to enter the US market) then it probably be affordable to the industry, a bit more expensive to the end user (assuming you're buying it wholesale and selling it, instead of using it like many of us would). If they try to sell retail direct, they'll either sell it at a reasonable profit to themselves, or gouge on it (100% markup or something) to make profit on a small number sold and maintian price parity with the market.

It's all quite reasonable when you think about it.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby RBIngraham » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:20 pm

Even that new Presonus remote preamp looks like it will run $700 and that is for an 8x8 to ADAT preamp. 32 channels of that is $2800 and you have not added in the cost of a real digital tranport of some kind.

Just saying.. I doubt it will be cheap and I fully expect most SAC users to be surprised when they see the price tag.

But hey, I could be wrong.... if so.. all the beter, assuming they are not so stupid that only Bob L has access to them.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby RBIngraham » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:30 pm

And then there is also the question of if they become reality.... even Bob said in one of his posts... if/when they become available. To me that means they likely have not taken the step of going from prototype to production yet. Could be waiting a while, just like SAC updates. :-)
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrettBrandon » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:09 am

That's the first thing that struck me was the if/when statement (it must be dependent on something).

4.0 has been released, but re-released how many times now for bug fixs, and it's still 4.0? And still not fixed.

Maybe Montarbo is waiting to see if the new 4.0 takes off and is worth their while before moving ahead with the investment....

If so, you may not see them for some time.
4.0 seems to be stumbling out of the starting blocks........ :roll:
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby jlepore » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:29 am

RBIngraham wrote:... and then your stuck with their worthless AES50 crap. Worthless of course unless you have their mixers.


Actually, that's what's used by all the Midas pro mixers. You can get the real high end Midas racks fairly cheap these days ...last time I looked, the 48x16 dl251 was under 4k - and that's real Midas preamps, not the x/m32 stuff.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BobP » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:39 am

BrentEvans wrote:Now... here's a novel idea to tie the two together. Create a plug patch point at multiple points along each channel (pre and post each processing session) which could host a GEQ or PEQ plug, compression plug, reverb plug, delay plug, etc (all your own, no need to incorporate VST for these, you have most of the code already). Then... add a plug for recording. All the recording plugs are synchronized into a transport... heck... you could have multiple transport instantiations and have them selectable per plug instantiation... that would be super cool. Having flexible points to plug in stuff would be awesome.

Also... since I did a show on the X32 last week, this is in my head... a RTA graph superimposed on any PEQ and GEQ instance (built in or plugged in) is really cool. No need to juggle two windows that way... and having a side chain input for the RTA would be cool so you can see either the bus or a measurement mic (or both?!).

So... that's my wish list... LOL. I'll probably be sending you some money within a couple of weeks anyway... but there you go.


Hey Brent,

Thanks for the clarification. I get what you're saying. Let me think on this one for a bit. I think the toughest part is to come up with a user interface that isn't too difficult to comprehend, yet still gives you the flexibility. I suspect we'll start
first with a two-track recorder that can be patched at any point, then perhaps enhance the current multi-track recorder to be able to pick off channel taps as well. In AMP, we sort of separate inputs from channels. By default, everything is mapped 1:1, but I'm not sure when I've mixed a show on any real mixer that ended up having perfect 1:1 input-to-channel translation... :-)

Regarding the Montarbo boxes: I suspect they are just using the RME MADI cards. MADI isn't ethernet, at least last time I looked. I would suspect it would work right now with AMP, minus their proprietary preamp control.

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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby RBIngraham » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:41 am

jlepore wrote:
RBIngraham wrote:... and then your stuck with their worthless AES50 crap. Worthless of course unless you have their mixers.


Actually, that's what's used by all the Midas pro mixers. You can get the real high end Midas racks fairly cheap these days ...last time I looked, the 48x16 dl251 was under 4k - and that's real Midas preamps, not the x/m32 stuff.


Yeah I know. I guess worthless crap was a bit strong. What I meant was that no one else seems to be using that protocol. So either you're using a Behringer X series or one of the several flavors of Midas desk. (Yeah OK there is that one sound card out there that has it also, I forget which make and model now, but it's only 32 channels I believe)

By contrast I could buy a Yamaha stage box and since it speaks Dante I could connect it to any number of hardware and software pieces.

Of course the problem with almost all of these is how do you control them if you don't have their matching consoles. Again, in this case Yamaha has some remote software for communicating just with the RIO boxes. That doesn't seem to be a fairly standard practice. Most seem to follow the "well if you buy our stage box you should buy our console" mentality. At least as far as I've seen anyway.
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