Heresy of Heresies

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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby RBIngraham » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:45 am

BobP wrote:
Regarding the Montarbo boxes: I suspect they are just using the RME MADI cards. MADI isn't ethernet, at least last time I looked. I would suspect it would work right now with AMP, minus their proprietary preamp control.

Bob


Nope MADI is not ethernet. It is not even a real audio network. It is a point to point protocol that can carry a fairly large channel count and some throw in some extra data down the MADI line as well.

MADI uses either Coax or Optical cables for transport.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:59 am

BobP wrote:
BrentEvans wrote:Now... here's a novel idea to tie the two together. Create a plug patch point at multiple points along each channel (pre and post each processing session) which could host a GEQ or PEQ plug, compression plug, reverb plug, delay plug, etc (all your own, no need to incorporate VST for these, you have most of the code already). Then... add a plug for recording. All the recording plugs are synchronized into a transport... heck... you could have multiple transport instantiations and have them selectable per plug instantiation... that would be super cool. Having flexible points to plug in stuff would be awesome.

Also... since I did a show on the X32 last week, this is in my head... a RTA graph superimposed on any PEQ and GEQ instance (built in or plugged in) is really cool. No need to juggle two windows that way... and having a side chain input for the RTA would be cool so you can see either the bus or a measurement mic (or both?!).

So... that's my wish list... LOL. I'll probably be sending you some money within a couple of weeks anyway... but there you go.


Hey Brent,

Thanks for the clarification. I get what you're saying. Let me think on this one for a bit. I think the toughest part is to come up with a user interface that isn't too difficult to comprehend, yet still gives you the flexibility. I suspect we'll start
first with a two-track recorder that can be patched at any point, then perhaps enhance the current multi-track recorder to be able to pick off channel taps as well. In AMP, we sort of separate inputs from channels. By default, everything is mapped 1:1, but I'm not sure when I've mixed a show on any real mixer that ended up having perfect 1:1 input-to-channel translation... :-)

Regarding the Montarbo boxes: I suspect they are just using the RME MADI cards. MADI isn't ethernet, at least last time I looked. I would suspect it would work right now with AMP, minus their proprietary preamp control.

Bob


A two track would be a great start. Honestly though, the eq plug is far more important to my workflow. The way SAC does it is more than sufficient . a pre and post tap on each channel and output strip.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BobP » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:17 am

Brent: are you suggesting an EQ plug-in just to be able to recall presets?
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:56 am

More like being able to stack presets on top of each other and be able to quickly modify the stack depending on which monitors and mics are in use.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrettBrandon » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:00 am

Brent,
Correct me if I am wrong but you want one eq for the wedge speaker and another eq for the microphone type.

Every aux master has a dedicated eq which can be used for the speaker type, and every input has a dedicated eq as well as every aux send has a three band parametric. That's two places to adjust per mic (for aux's). The input channel eq would affect the foh as well.

Having to adjust your output eq (speaker type) from every channel sounds like a sac workaround, for not having eq on the outputs...
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:33 am

No, that's not it. Occasionally I'll tweak a channel EQ on a monitor mixer, but I"m mostly talking about outputs and submasters where all this happens.

Typically, you'll have a master EQ on monitor outs, usually a 31 band graphic. AMP has that. The problem is that when you walk into a show, you kind of have to start from scratch with monitor EQs. You get them sounding OK, then start removing feedback. Lather, rinse, repeat for each monitor chain. The system squeals the whole time while you're ringing out. This is the way everyone has done it since the old analog days.

I have found a better and much faster way. Because SAC has modular EQ that can stack one on top of another without degrading the sounds, you can save Individual microphones into individual speakers. I might have six EQ plugs on a monitor chain, each one with only one or two adjustments... but I dont' have to ring out monitors any more. The only thing I hate about the way SAC does it is he doesn't show you which preset is on each EQ plug. A simple titlebar would fix that. When I look at a list of plugs for Monitor 1 Output, I'd like to see a list like this:
---------------------------------------
1.< AMP PEQ> "CM12V Base EQ"
2. <AMP PEQ> "CM12V Senn 835 FB"
3. <AMP PEQ> "CM12V Sams CO2 FB"
4. <AMP PEQ> "CM12V DaCap DA-6 FB"
5. <AMP PEQ> "CM12V Cman E6 FB"
-----------------------
Monitor 2 might be:
---------------------------------------
1.< AMP PEQ> "PAS12 Base EQ"
2. <AMP PEQ> "PAS12 Senn 835 FB"
3. <AMP PEQ> "PAS12 Shure SM58 FB"
4. <AMP PEQ> "PAS12 Shjuire SM57 FB"
-----------------------
I can quickly see which mics I"m set up for. Each one of those PEQ instantiations might only have two or three feedback notches (really narrow, so they don't affect the sound). The thing is, I can build a monitor EQ in nearly seconds without having to ring out anything. I only ever have to ring out something if I've never used that mic with that speaker. If I come across a new feedback on an existing combination, I add it and resave. Good for the next time... they're tiny parametric notches so the overall sound isn't affected. Everything is labeled and easy to modify at the next show if it changes a bit. Nobody ever complains about my monitors except to say they are too loud.

It works really well, saves time, and it prevents having to ring out a whole stage with people in the room (which is a common thing for me).

Does this explain it better/
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby RBIngraham » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:09 pm

I understand what you're doing but wouldn't the feedback points of each mic in relation to monitor speaker X change from venue to venue? Or even if you move the mics to different spots on the stage in relation to the specific monitor speaker?
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby jlepore » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:37 pm

Yes, they would.

I usually start out getting one right and copying it to the rest of the mixes and then tweaking for position.
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrentEvans » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:32 pm

All I can say is that I've been doing it this way for three years and my system just works. Occasionally I'll hear a little something, usually really close to one of the preset notches. I widen that notch a touch and it goes away. You guys can say "it wouldn't work" all you want... it does work, and works VERY well. I've spent a lot of time tuning these presets.

I deal with six to eight handhelds hot on my stage at nearly all times plus a high gain lectern mic or two, high gain piano and bluegrass sections, high gain choir mics.... it's crazy on some of these stages. Earlier this month I took this, which was only part of the mics on my stage, and at times all open at once:

Image

Add to that collection a few more of the sd condensers, another countryman isomax (both on piano) six wireless Sennheiser handhelds, and a da cappo headset, all roving around the stage and MOST in two or three of the four monitor mixes, all done with wedges. Six wedges on two mixes had to be loud enough for a 400 person choir. Choir mics WERE in some of the band wedges. No feedback for two weeks. My system works. :)
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Re: Heresy of Heresies

Postby BrettBrandon » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:54 pm

Yes that does explain it much better.
As long as the notches are thin enough not to affect other mics, that sounds like a great solution.
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