Drums VST's?

Discussions about the use and operation of SAC (Software Audio Console)

Drums VST's?

Postby AntonZ » Fri May 17, 2013 4:22 am

Among other things I use SAC for mixing live drums. The SAC channel strip offers way more control than most analog tables. Our drummer has a good kit and does a great job tuning it, so the base material always sounds good. I have a few different presets for rock/pop/balads and in general I am quite happy with the results. Only the kick can be less convincing at times. I have seen people using Drumagog 4 with SAC to trigger a sampled kick from the kick channel. Unfortunately Drumagog is not within my budget. Yes, guilty as charged, I'm one of those cheap ass weekend warriors using SAC with their own band :geek:

Are there any cheaper (or freeware) VST's out there that I could use to trigger the kick, preferably ones that someone can recommend from personal experience?
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Re: Drums VST's?

Postby gdougherty » Fri May 17, 2013 10:39 am

What's the complaint about the kick? It's either the source (tuning), mic placement or reproduction system that's typically the problem assuming a decent kick mic. If you've got a good system with the output you need it should be possible to take care of the rest without triggering.
Not to say, don't consider it, but maybe the problem lies elsewhere.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

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Re: Drums VST's?

Postby BrettBrandon » Fri May 17, 2013 11:06 am

I don't have any live experience with it but I have messed with it replacing drums in a multitrack recording. You can blend it anywhere from original signal to full sample. I am going to try it this summer for the low end of the kick. I'm going to try a kick sample that has just low end with the mids and highs notched out. Then I can bring the sample up for a good solid bottom without the risk of feedback, and still retain the tone of the original drum.

It's called Replacer.
http://www.boxsounds.com/vst.html

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Re: Drums VST's?

Postby AntonZ » Fri May 17, 2013 7:01 pm

gdougherty wrote:What's the complaint about the kick?


The kit has a decent mic mounted inside the shell. Probably Sennheiser, the mics on his snare and toms are all very decent Sennheisers. The drummer knows how to tune his kit, it sounds good on it's own without amplification.

A good kick has both a solid bottom end (in the 60-80Hz region) and a click (around 6K) that adds definition. The kick without amplification sounds good, as does the rest of the kit. The bottom and mid smack are there. I get a good and fat bottom sound (somewhat contrary to Brett's experience), but the "click" doesn't come out. I have worked compression (leave some attack time for the initial click before compression sets in) and EQ (boost the upper freqs on the kick mic), but it doesn't give me a nice click without compromising the rest of the kick sound. I want to retain the sound of the current mic, as the drummer has consistent volume, good control and knows how to tune his kit, the lower part of the kick spectrum is just fine as it is. I'd like to blend in some "click" from a triggered sample.
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Re: Drums VST's?

Postby leadfoot » Fri May 17, 2013 10:23 pm

"the lower part of the kick spectrum is just fine as it is. I'd like to blend in some "click"

Isn't that why god gave us the beta 52/91 combo?
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Re: Drums VST's?

Postby RBIngraham » Fri May 17, 2013 10:57 pm

Perhaps think about putting a mic on the beater side of the kick drum as well. Blend to taste.
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Re: Drums VST's?

Postby Butch » Fri May 17, 2013 10:59 pm

Split the kick into 2 chs and use the hi and lo pass and eq to get a click ch and add to taste
If you still can not get a click then the mic placement is wrong

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Re: Drums VST's?

Postby jlepore » Sat May 18, 2013 1:08 am

I agree with Butch. Also make sure there isn't padding sitting against the mic. If you're going through padding, you will lose all the high end. If no one checks every time the kit is set up, you will get very inconsistant sound. Easy to overlook when you don't have to place the mic everytime you set up.
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Re: Drums VST's?

Postby gdougherty » Sat May 18, 2013 1:31 am

Exactly as Butch mentioned. I call it the Poor Man's Perfectly Time Aligned Beta 91. I actually like it a little better since I don't have to mess with 2 mics and it only eats up one input. Been doing it for at least 2 years after finally working with a double mic'd kick and liking the versatility of sound.

I roll the low cut into 3-400hz range, big boost in the 3k+ range, compress and gate as desired. You may want to trigger off the original kick channel and use the key filters so you aren't using the post EQ signal for gating. You can also tighten up the release if you're using a longer release on the kick channel. Gets a nice clear click out of the drum with big fat bottom and you can roll it back if the situation warrants it.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

g is for George
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Re: Drums VST's?

Postby AntonZ » Sat May 18, 2013 2:59 am

Thanks all for the detailed replies, much appreciated.

There isn't much room for an extra mic on the beater side (with a double pedal and rest of the kit around there) and I have no spare channels left on the drums snake so would ideally like to avoid an extra mic. I will try the other suggestions first, see if it gives usable improvements: placement of the current mic inside the shell, check for any padding in the way.

And thanks for bringing up the split channel trick, Butch. Going to do that as well. I do a very similar thing for the toms, to suppress cymbal bleed in the toms channels. Toms high pass channels are gated with a short release time, they pass the sharp initial attack then close right away to filter out overhead bleed. The low pass channel on the same tom has a much longer release time - but is low passed so I have the typical ring out phase (which has no relevant hi-freq information) without overhead bleed. This works a treat for cleaning up the toms channels from hihat/cymbal bleed. He uses three toms plus floor, so there can be a lot of unwanted cymbal bleed there. Hadn't thought of using a split channel for the kick, going to give that a try as well.
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