Gig last weekend

Discussions about the use and operation of SAC (Software Audio Console)

Gig last weekend

Postby randyhyde » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:22 pm

Well, let's strike one thing Bob has said off the list.
"In 15 minutes you can train a guest/band engineer to use enough SAC to mix a show."

Now I'm not one to suggest that mixing with a mouse is easier than using a control surface (say, on a reasonable digital board), but even I recognize the limitations of control surfaces in SAC and yes, indeed, some operations *are* easier in SAC using the mouse than they are using a (limited) control surface. For example, you want to adjust one fader somewhere on the board and that fader just doesn't happen to be present on your fader pack. It's usually easier to just grab the mouse and tweak that fader than it is to (1) grab the mouse, select the channel, and move the 1st fader on the fader pack or (2) use the bank button to get the desired channel onto the fader pack, seek out the right channel (looking that the digital scribble strips on the Mackie in my case), and adjusting the physical fader.

This weekend I had a guest engineer who absolutely could not use a mouse to adjust faders. He used both of the methods above to select the channel and then he adjusted the gain by moving the fader. He was also a big fan of EQ'ing just about every input (as well as the mains' output) on the board. I heard nothing but complaints about how he wanted knobs and felt the mouse adjustments were too sensitive (yeah, I could have told him about the Mackie's abilities to adjust various parameters, but he was already going to slow on the board and I didn't want to have to train him more during the show).

I've gotten so used to SAC's idiosyncrasies that I've forgotten how bad the user interface can be. The GE asked me several (legitimate) questions about why SAC was designed as poorly as it was. Questions (that we all know about but don't think about these days) like:

1) Why do some buttons darken when they are actuated and others lighten?
2) Why doesn't SAC have real DCA/VCA controls? (He absolutely rejected the idea of group fader latches on the group faders; moving the actual input channel faders was unacceptable and adding a gain stage [group] was unacceptable).
3) Why can't you easily select an output channel and see which input channels are assigned to it?
4) Why does the "graphic equalizer plug in" only have 7 channels (parametric or not, he used them all and wanted more; didn't even want to try to patch in two of them and let him switch between them).
5) Why couldn't he adjust reverb parameters from the remote? (I'm using spazio, which isn't remoteable, but neither is Bob's reverb; not that he would have been happy with Bob's reverb). FWIW, my lead sound engineer is often wondering this same question.
6) Why can't we feed the output of one group to the input of another group?
7) Why is the user interface for controls on the SAC board different from those on the delay and graphic EQ plugins? (I.e., no pop-up fader).

He also came across the control surface bug where the (Mackie?) control surface gets in some mode where it's constantly setting the fader value and any attempt to set the fader with the mouse fails because the control surface just repositions the fader.

The guy absolutely rejected the mouse-based approach. Every time he had to adjust some parameter with the mouse, he muttered some unspeakables under his breath. Now I'm not saying this guy is completely right (hey, if you walk into an unknown venue and sit down at a board you've never used before, blaming the board because of your own insecurities and inabilities isn't a good show of professionalism) but the truth of the matter is that anyone who does the types of shows that I do with SAC is going to come across a lot of band engineers and some of them aren't going to be able to handle SAC's virtual mixing environment very well. It would be really nice if SAC was just a little nicer to use by these people. Bob can claim "anyone can be trained in 15 minutes to mix a show on SAC" but that doesn't make it true. I've had around a dozen guest engineers over the years I've owned SAC and all but two of them walked away feeling very frustrated (one had actually used SAC, one was a big DAW user and was immediately comfortable with SAC).

Now I don't want to give the impression that *everything* that happened was SAC's fault. This guy was one of the strangest sound engineers I've ever put on SAC with just a few minute's training. First of all, made a whole bunch of EQ adjustments *before* any sound was coming out of the system; then, during sound check, he put on a pair of cans and made many more adjustments. Surprise, surprise, when the band started playing for real (through the mains) the EQ was all messed up. I can understand that a sound engineer that tours with an act might know the particulars for the performers' instruments and might be able to preset the EQ *on their sound system* as a starting point, but when you step up to a strange board, on a strange system, in a strange venue and start tweaking EQ before you've got actual sound coming out, you're begging for problems (and we had them).

The guy was also a volume freak. For the first time in my life, the system tripped a 100-amp breaker *on the generator* (it also tripped *every* breaker on my power distribution box). During the show, he managed to trip one sub breaker (no big deal, lost two out of six subs for a few minutes) and then, on the very last word of the last song he boosted the lead vocals so much it tripped the break for my mains amps (two ITech 8000 amps). Unbelievable. I've tripped one 20-amp breaker on this system on two separate occasions for the past couple of years.

I always sell earplugs at the front of house booth. Crappy little things that I buy at Harbor Freight and sell for $0.25 each (basically break-even cost) to avoid lawsuit issues (especially with parents who insist on parking their pre-teens 20' from my FOH mains). At this show I sold out of every ear plug I had *during the sound check*. The sound engineer was quite proud of himself for that; he said "see, I just made you more money." To which I responded that I sell these things at cost and the fact that we sold out *probably* suggests that the system was a bit too loud. He ignored that, and kept complaining the whole night that he needed twice the system to do the show.

Fortunately, my Driverack 4800 was protecting my speakers. I would have been fearful for my gear if I didn't see those limiter lights coming on during especially aggressive song mixes.

I didn't even bother pointing out that this particular crowd doesn't want it ear splitting loud (they often complain about the volume when my guys are mixing). I also didn't bother pointing out that when you use up all the headroom, the mix is going to sound like crap. My attitude was "it's your sound, I'm not responsible for it." OTOH, it's my company's banner hanging on the FOH booth. Ugh.

On the plus side, the band was totally IEMs. That was a *big* piece of pleasantry. Once during the set the lead singer came up and said to me "I need 3 more dB at 3.1 KHz." How easy is that? (Usually people say "my vocals are muddy" and I have no clue what they want me to do about it).

On the SAC front, I came across a new (to me) bug while setting up the system. Hooked up the Mackie MCU and got it working. For some reason, I unplugged the Mackie and tried to reconnect it. This crashed SAC Remote. Good thing the guest engineer was present at that point he probably would have freaked.

Oh well, here's to next week; we've got a Doors tribute band. Hopefully it won't be as crazy.
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Re: Gig last weekend

Postby soundguy » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:05 pm

randyhyde wrote:Well, let's strike one thing Bob has said off the list.
"In 15 minutes you can train a guest/band engineer to use enough SAC to mix a show."


He only says that when users complain how difficult it is to learn SAC. When defending his wacko interface and unique commands, he uses the opposite argument of "You must read the manual and train for several weeks to become competent on SAC". He just chooses the appropriate bullshit for the appropriate complaint.

This guy was one of the strangest sound engineers I've ever put on SAC with just a few minute's training. First of all, made a whole bunch of EQ adjustments *before* any sound was coming out of the system; then, during sound check, he put on a pair of cans and made many more adjustments. Surprise, surprise, when the band started playing for real (through the mains) the EQ was all messed up. I can understand that a sound engineer that tours with an act might know the particulars for the performers' instruments and might be able to preset the EQ *on their sound system* as a starting point, but when you step up to a strange board, on a strange system, in a strange venue and start tweaking EQ before you've got actual sound coming out, you're begging for problems (and we had them).


I'm siding with the "strange" engineer on this one as far as "presets" go. I almost always set certain channel EQs and levels before the sound check starts ... if I even get a sound check. I assume that the system is going to be within the realm of being "relatively balanced" ... and I do this on ANY system. It's also the main reason engineers travel with show files to plug into various digital consoles. The consoles are the same, but the speaker and amp components are likely different. Hopefully, the end result is a relatively balanced system and the presets work as they are supposed to. If they don't, then it's time to take the gloves off and try to teach the locals how to set up a system.

On my vocal mics I do very little, because they should sound great on a decent system ... even an "off the shelf" system of pro quality.

Having said that, I don't start tweaking output EQ until I hear something, usually starting off with some program music I carry with me. In most cases with pro systems, this requires very little attention. Usually I leave the system EQ alone, and load up a graphic across the stereo output and tweak the mids a bit for my taste.

The guy was also a volume freak. For the first time in my life, the system tripped a 100-amp breaker *on the generator* (it also tripped *every* breaker on my power distribution box). During the show, he managed to trip one sub breaker (no big deal, lost two out of six subs for a few minutes) and then, on the very last word of the last song he boosted the lead vocals so much it tripped the break for my mains amps (two ITech 8000 amps). Unbelievable. I've tripped one 20-amp breaker on this system on two separate occasions for the past couple of years
.

I can count on one hand the times I have blown breakers, and it is ALWAYS the responsibility of the system installer. I understand that you can cruise through life with light weight use on your system and never draw power, but an iTech 8000 can draw over 30 amps EACH with low impedance loads and driven hard ... like an underpowered system ... or subs. You have two amps on one 20A breaker?

I found your posting interesting that you did not post a decibel reading when referring to "volume" or "too loud". The fact that you blew breakers is not an indication of how loud it really was ... especially with the vocal push you referred to. It doesn't take much power to get a vocal out there.

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Re: Gig last weekend

Postby randyhyde » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:49 pm

soundguy wrote:
I can count on one hand the times I have blown breakers, and it is ALWAYS the responsibility of the system installer. I understand that you can cruise through life with light weight use on your system and never draw power, but an iTech 8000 can draw over 30 amps EACH with low impedance loads and driven hard ... like an underpowered system ... or subs. You have two amps on one 20A breaker?

Nope. One amp per 20-amp circuit.
The amazing thing is *not* that he tripped a breaker that one amp was on, but that he tripped *every* breaker on the distro box and the 100-amp breaker on the generator.

I found your posting interesting that you did not post a decibel reading when referring to "volume" or "too loud". The fact that you blew breakers is not an indication of how loud it really was ... especially with the vocal push you referred to. It doesn't take much power to get a vocal out there.

Soundguy

I didn't measure the sound pressure level when he blew the breakers, but we typically run around 115 dB 20' from the speakers (which is where the audience starts). FOH is between 75 and 100'. We run delay stacks (two SRX 725 cabinets off an XTi 4000 amp) out at about 175'-200'.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
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Re: Gig last weekend

Postby IraSeigel » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:49 pm

Of course, "loudness" and "volume" are relative. You're smart to have earplugs available, and I, too, hate to see parents exposing their very young children to "rock level" volumes.

However, you should also be concerned with what's allowed by city codes, and so should the bands' engineers. Any touring engineer has come across local ordinances, and I can't count the number of times I've had to sign agreements to keep my levels to their rules (OK City Zoo comes to mind!!!). So altho your blown breakers are a not-so-good gauge of "loudness", you should also keep a dB meter - and maybe even record the levels at 5-minute intervals - to avoid OSHA and municipal lawsuits.
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Re: Gig last weekend

Postby jlepore » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Got to say, I agree with most of what soundguy and the GE have said and done.

I too know exactly what I have to do to certain channels / mics to make them do what I want. I usually do these on my show files for whatever console I am building for. I know what I have to do to a B52 in a kick, and what I will preset in a 58 for vocals, etc. When I walk up, I will EQ the mains based on tracks I know very well, and know what I am listening for. From there, I shouldn't have to do anything special on one desk vs. another.

There will always be minor differences, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have your channels preset for what a "normal tuned" system, would do.

I am not sure what was on "all" of your breakers, but if you are blowing breakers, they are underrated for the amplifiers and other load you have attached to them. No amplifier will pull more power than it is rated to take. As mentioned, the i8Ks are rated 30A - I can understand why they would blow a 20A breaker. Not the fault of the mixer, but of the hardware setup. The volume issue is a seperate topic.

The real issue here is bringing a SAC system to someone that I assume you did not advance a SAC system to. It does not sound like a guy that was going to say, "what the hell, let me try it out". It sounds more like a guy that walked in and said "oh shit .. what it todays crappy system de jour". I have the same feeling when I walk into a place and find a presonus or the old behringer thing (tt24 or something) or some other craptastic board. I just know my day got more difficult that it needed to be. The day generally doesn't get better from that point.
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Re: Gig last weekend

Postby soundguy » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:08 am

randyhyde wrote:Nope. One amp per 20-amp circuit.
The amazing thing is *not* that he tripped a breaker that one amp was on, but that he tripped *every* breaker on the distro box and the 100-amp breaker on the generator.


The amazing thing is that you are not providing sufficient AC distribution to meet manufacturers requirements. These amps draw more current than you are providing. End of story. Potential failure at every show. RTFM.

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Re: Gig last weekend

Postby randyhyde » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:42 am

soundguy wrote:
randyhyde wrote:Nope. One amp per 20-amp circuit.
The amazing thing is *not* that he tripped a breaker that one amp was on, but that he tripped *every* breaker on the distro box and the 100-amp breaker on the generator.


The amazing thing is that you are not providing sufficient AC distribution to meet manufacturers requirements. These amps draw more current than you are providing. End of story. Potential failure at every show. RTFM.

Soundguy


Well, the amps *do* say 20 amps on the back. And it's a 20-amp plug that they provide with the amplifier. Forgive me for thinking that a 20-amp circuit would be sufficient.
cheers,
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Re: Gig last weekend

Postby randyhyde » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:49 am

jlepore wrote:Got to say, I agree with most of what soundguy and the GE have said and done.

I too know exactly what I have to do to certain channels / mics to make them do what I want. I usually do these on my show files for whatever console I am building for. I know what I have to do to a B52 in a kick, and what I will preset in a 58 for vocals, etc. When I walk up, I will EQ the mains based on tracks I know very well, and know what I am listening for. From there, I shouldn't have to do anything special on one desk vs. another.


Really? On a board you've never worked on before? In a venue you've never played at before? On a sound system you've never used before?
Sure, I can understand a few standard tweaks for known devices; but without even listening to anything?
Let's just say that when he put the cans down and we started listening to the system the EQ was *completely* messed up. Maybe this approach works for you, it certainly didn't for him.

There will always be minor differences, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have your channels preset for what a "normal tuned" system, would do.

Yes, we have our system tuned for the venue. He came in and messed with that. Oh well.

I am not sure what was on "all" of your breakers, but if you are blowing breakers, they are underrated for the amplifiers and other load you have attached to them. No amplifier will pull more power than it is rated to take. As mentioned, the i8Ks are rated 30A - I can understand why they would blow a 20A breaker. Not the fault of the mixer, but of the hardware setup. The volume issue is a seperate topic.

My amps say 20 amps on the back. It has a 20-amp plug. Surprising that its rated at 30 amps. News to me.

The real issue here is bringing a SAC system to someone that I assume you did not advance a SAC system to. It does not sound like a guy that was going to say, "what the hell, let me try it out". It sounds more like a guy that walked in and said "oh shit .. what it todays crappy system de jour". I have the same feeling when I walk into a place and find a presonus or the old behringer thing (tt24 or something) or some other craptastic board. I just know my day got more difficult that it needed to be. The day generally doesn't get better from that point.


Actually, I called him and gave him the SAC web page about four days before the show.
Cheers,
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Re: Gig last weekend

Postby jlepore » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:24 am

From the manual:
T8000.jpg
T8000.jpg (152.92 KiB) Viewed 23702 times


That thing can draw 35+ amps when driven hard.
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Re: Gig last weekend

Postby soundguy » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:15 pm

randyhyde wrote:Really? On a board you've never worked on before? In a venue you've never played at before? On a sound system you've never used before?

Yes, Yes, Yes and Yes. Every day for decades. And this is true for every traveling engineer I know. I guess it's possible that your guy didn't know what he was doing, but this is common practice. Honest.
My amps say 20 amps on the back. It has a 20-amp plug. Surprising that its rated at 30 amps. News to me

I don't think it says that on the amp at all. But in the manual it is clear that the amp can draw over 30 amps with a combination of a low impedance load and driven hard. This can be critical when pushing subs hard ... a lot of power required there.
Actually, I called him and gave him the SAC web page about four days before the show.

Did you explain "the vision" and tell him about "the ride"?

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