Another nail in the coffin?

Discussions about the use and operation of SAC (Software Audio Console)

Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby BrettBrandon » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:20 am

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Last edited by BrettBrandon on Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby soundguy » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:57 pm

BrettBrandon wrote:Umm, Soundguy?
Why don't you try rereading the post.....
Here is what he said,
"Hate to say, but I also prefer about 10-12 DCA's with my current act. I make due with 8, but a few more would be helpful."

I don't see him stating anywhere that he is using more than 8. I see him saying that he makes due with 8.....
Maybe the way you read what you want to see while reading posts explains some of your replies.... :roll:



Gosh Brett, I didn't realize you could read Joe's mind from a distance. Or maybe you can't and you have no fucking idea what console Joe is using or not using or what he wishes to use, and just thought you'd post negative shit to create more shit.

Joe is a pro working at a high level and am interested in what he has to say. If I ever decide to purchase a SAC license and want to change it's "shade", I'll get in touch with you, or one of the dozens of others who spend their time creating shades for a product no one uses.

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Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby jlepore » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:05 pm

Sorry .. just back from tour .. been busy catching up.

I have used an XL8 with 10 DCAs, I have run into a PM1D with 12 DCAs. I generally get a venue system (profile or SC48), a bunch of M7CLs, a few PM5Ds.

In any event, I will use up to 10 DCAs if available, but I make 8 work when I have to. In some cases, I use Groups to handle some of the duties, but generally prefer DCAs.

And please back off Brett. He's a good guy that I've interacted with quite a bit and he's on the right side here.
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Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby soundguy » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:45 pm

VCA are more convenient, but groups can certainly get the job done just as well although it takes a little more effort to set up. Hardly more than a few minutes.

I've recently been on a 1D and an XL8 and still didn't need more than 8, but that's just me. I'll see an XL8 again coming up soon, so I'll make a point of checking the extra VCA situation out. Have a CL5 coming up next week, so I'll be interested in checking that out as well. I'll be using the Yamaha conversion tool to migrate a PM5D file, so I'll probably download the CL5 offline editor in advance to see what I can see.

And if Brett backs of off me, he won't hear a peep from me. I didn't direct anything his way until he dove in.

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Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby RBIngraham » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:03 pm

soundguy wrote:VCA are more convenient, but groups can certainly get the job done just as well although it takes a little more effort to set up. Hardly more than a few minutes.


It's about a lot more than simple convenience. A DCA/VGA group is far more versatile in terms of routing flexibility and keeping effects sends tracking with input levels (just to name one benefit over a group). Yeah you can make due with using groups or in the case of some digital consoles using a combination of fader groups and custom fader layers, but none of those options really replicate fully what one can do with a DCA.

Of course there are benefits of a group as well, such as adding processing to the group, which obviously you can not do with a DCA alone.

I guess to me they are two very different things and while you can make do with one or the other, it is just that... making do. Kind of like how I make do with what SAC tries to call a DCA, which is really just a fader latch and nothing more.
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Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby soundguy » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:48 pm

RB, I think we are talking about different "groups". There are audio groups and fader groups, and as you pointed out. VCA are better if you need to balance the channels within the VCA "group", because on a fader group typically all faders move if you grab one. You know the rest.

As a studio engineer, it's second nature to me to work with fader groups.

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Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby RBIngraham » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:56 pm

soundguy wrote:RB, I think we are talking about different "groups". There are audio groups and fader groups, and as you pointed out. VCA are better if you need to balance the channels within the VCA "group", because on a fader group typically all faders move if you grab one. You know the rest.

As a studio engineer, it's second nature to me to work with fader groups.

Soundguy



Ah! Got it. Yes I thought you meant group as in submaster. They are all a bit different animals and all have their place. For live work, fader groups or latches or whatever term is used per manufacturer are useful and work very similar to a DCA. But just like in SAC, fader groups can also cause problems and it's not always easy to adjust a level of something in one of those groups on the fly. (assuming of course the faders are not hidden away in some other layer anyway) At the very least it is a two step or two handed process that involves pushing some button while you grab the fader you wish to move independently. (typically the select button on a Yamaha) The other bit of a drawback is you can not assign a single input to more than one of those type of groups. (at least not on any desk I've run into) Yeah, you can in SAC... but anyone that's actually played with it will know what disaster that could cause. :) Of course SAC really adds to the fun in that if you write a scene that adjusts one of the "Latch Group" Output faders, the inputs assigned to that Latch Group don't move up or down proportionally... which of course throw the whole damn thing out of whack. Ugh.... so close yet so far... sigh....
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Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby randyhyde » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:00 am

soundguy wrote:VCA are more convenient, but groups can certainly get the job done just as well although it takes a little more effort to set up. Hardly more than a few minutes.

Soundguy


I dunno, I've had guest engineers that refuse to use groups, they only want DCAs. And once I show them how SAC does the job, they basically throw up. As RB sez: so close yet so far.

Personally, Bob *almost* did something good. It's really nice to see the effect that multiple DCAs (latches, whatever) have on a given input channel. However, I really don't want the faders moved from the mix I've set up. What would have been really nice is little "triangles" or some other indication (perhaps on the bar graph for the channel) that shows the current actual level independent of the fader position. Now that would have been really cool; having an input channel controlled by multiple DCAs would be a doable thing at that point.
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Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby jlepore » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:25 am

I use both DCAs and audio groups. Never consider fader groups.... everything moving as one defeats the purpose for me, and having to hold something to release a fader is just fucking stupid.

I generally have BOTH dca's AND groups on the same channels (I have a drum group, BGV group, etc - as well as having a VCA for Drums, one for BGVs, etc.)
The harder I push the VCAs, the harder I hit the group compression. If I need more overall level, I move the group fader. I also stack VCA's so I will have an overall BAND vca in addition to the others. I am working with a VERY dynamic band, and need to tweek the balance of vox vs. band at times and that is the best way to do it.
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Re: Another nail in the coffin?

Postby soundguy » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:59 am

Yeah, I nest all of the instrument VCA within a Band VCA as well. I usually run Vox, Drums, Gtrs, Keys, Band. Don't bother with separate Bkg Vox. I also will have many channels not in a VCA at all (other than the Band) such as Bass, extra Percussion, and whatever mics are used maybe once during the show. If I have horns or mulitple keyboard players each with their own messes, I'll have a couple more VCA. I just don't see the point of having two Gtr VCA just because there are two gtr players.

I usually find myself reaching for the VCA only a few times during a show, typically more often at end when the vocalists are running out of steam a bit and the band manages to get louder. Most the time, I'm hands on the individual faders tweaking for balances.

I don't use fader groups live either, but use them a lot in the studio ... mostly for muting and soloing to build a mix or listen for a problem. So if I were forced to use them live it would not be a big deal for me at all.

We all have different techniques.

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