Midi

Discussions about the use and operation of SAC (Software Audio Console)

Midi

Postby leadfoot » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:33 pm

In regards to some recent posts on the other forum, I don't know why he's all of a sudden there again, I'm not questioning it, don't care.. but..

He recently made a NRPN 102 chan midi template, what is NRPN? Do I want it? I tried it and can't make it work/don't understand it.
He also made a regular template which seems to work, is that good enough for what I'm doing(using an ipad with RTP midi and an app called midi designer, works really well so far)

Am I correct in understanding that these new templates are basically to give us more channels to work with? (basically) And if so, why didn't that already exist? I know, rhetorical question :)

Thanks!
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Re: Midi

Postby RBIngraham » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:07 pm

If someone else doesn't explain, I will when I'm not on just a tablet. Short answer is NRPN is short for Non Registered Parameter Number. They are basically three MIDI CC (continous controller) srtapped together to allow for a lot more than the 128 controller limit of CC commands. And they offer more than 128 step resolution.
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Re: Midi

Postby leadfoot » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:51 pm

That's pretty much what I thought. Thing is I tried it with the Midi Designer app, I hit the "learn" button, and it didn't work. At least it didn't work like it does with the regular template. I'm sure I just don't know how to make it work, but as soon as something gets weird, I start asking questions.. Maybe I don't really even need it, idk. If you have an ipad, you should check out Midi designer, it is very useful. Really opened up Sac's usability for me, and now with more channels available to control, should be even better. Brett really has this stuff down to a science, he helped me with it quite a bit.
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Re: Midi

Postby jlepore » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:34 pm

Thanks for reminding me of the name of this app. Now that I have gone to the dark side (I had to buy an iJunk device) I can probably try this and it will make testing my new templates a bit easier I would guess.

The whole reason for the NNPR is to give you higher resolution to the faders. Probably not all that important on a touch screen interface, but with hardware, it would give you better feel and more precise adjustments.
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Re: Midi

Postby RBIngraham » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:57 pm

Yeah, the learn function might not work because the app only understands how to "learn" MIDI CC messages. NRPN can be a bit complex. And I really don't care for them myself. Yes, they allow for greater precision and they can allow for higher number of parameters you can control without having to use up all 16 MIDI channels, but there are drawbacks. Each message is really the equivelant of three MIDI CC messages strapped together. If those three messages get out of order, then the messages start to fall apart and the recieving device can become confused. Example, if you recall a scene in SAC and it has a timed fade, it will try to send multiple fader messages over the period of time to fade the hardware faders. But since it doesn't make sure not to mix up the multiple NRPN messages, the faders on your BCF will freak out. The longer the fade time, the worse it gets. In Bob's defense, this issue is not unique to SAC. I do think it's his bug to fix, since he not only made SAC and the controller template but in the case of the BCF he chose which and what kind of messages to use. So he could have fixed that issue a long time ago if he cared. But I have had issues like this with Yamaha and other digital consoles when controlling them via MIDI controllers from software other than Yamaha software. So it's not an uncommon issue.

As for whether you need them... not really. I have mixed shows just fine with hardware faders using only 128 steps of resolution. One thing I always do is tweak Bob's fader curves in SAC so I have more finess in the part of the fader where you want it to be. Nothing worse than having unity be just above the mid point of the fader travel, which it is in so many of his templates. It's really annoying when the db values are no where near close to what the silk screen on the surface is. (when using something like a 01V or Promix 01 for a surface).

Hope that helps.
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Re: Midi

Postby BrentEvans » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:04 pm

If there are 128 steps of resolution in a CC command, and the fader has 120db of gain, that's basically 1db resolution. Seems like that ought to be quite sufficient for live work.
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Re: Midi

Postby RBIngraham » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:21 pm

BrentEvans wrote:If there are 128 steps of resolution in a CC command, and the fader has 120db of gain, that's basically 1db resolution. Seems like that ought to be quite sufficient for live work.


Yeah it depends on what you're doing. For mixing bands and even musicals, this is ussually fine. But you can hear the difference between good and bad fades paticulalrly when working with playback shows. Lots of times you may need to fade in or out at lower volumes, so less resolution between your target level and the floor where you can no longer hear sound can lead to some stair stepping type effects.

SAC really isn't very good at that kind of stuff, but of course that is not it's primary purpose so you can forgive it a bit. The good tools for this kind of stuff may only have a limited number of volume points the user can set but they will perform smooth fades between those steps. This is how the Richmond stuff worked. He used MIDI values so 128 possible setings, but when fading, internally it used much higher precision, smoothly fading between each of those steps, even when you were doing fades by hand with a surface.
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Re: Midi

Postby leadfoot » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:00 pm

Well, I finally got to trying his new template, and of course it doesn't work right. I spent hours setting up a design, and entering all the parameters for the named ticks and all that so the faders match Sac's.. as soon as I re-order the channels so I can fit them all on the screen the way I used to have, it stops working!!!! Dammit. Now I know he said he's working on a fix for that, but I've seen very long silences for months with him, so now what? (just venting I know there's nothing you guys can do) Except for maybe Joe could fix his 102 channel template to actually work :) This is one of the bugs you were eluding to wasn't it? :roll:
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Re: Midi

Postby RBIngraham » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:10 pm

Yes that is one of the bugs. The primary offender... which of course Bob's intial responce when I brought it up was to debate about if it qualified as a bug. lol


The other bug is also mentioned on the official forum... it has todo with SAC expecting the bank change CC command to be used for bank changes I think which broke some controllers on certain channels. Of course rather than just skipping over that one CC controller he is going to add more code to SAC itself... ugh...

There is at least one more bug Joe found that I don't think anyone has figured out yet... including myself.
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Re: Midi

Postby leadfoot » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:23 pm

Can someone please ask him, while he's at it, to add midi control for toggling the engine 'live' button and monitor mix views. I haven't been "banned" over there (yet) I just can't bring myself to post there anymore for a number of reasons. But I still want him to get off his butt and get Sac up to date.
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