EasyPeasy

Discussions about the use and operation of SAC (Software Audio Console)

Re: EasyPeasy

Postby IraSeigel » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:14 pm

It's been about a year since I used a DiGiCo, but if I recall, a mouse figures heavily in the operation of the desk. As it does with the Avids (Digidesigns). Which is why I don't like them. The nonsense about "using all your favorite Waves plugins" is just a bunch of marketing crap. Another caution about DiGiCo: users have reported significant PS problems, with the console just shutting down in the middle of gigs. Doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies...

The Soundcraft Vi4 and 6 - and now the 3000 - on the other hand....

Curmudgeonly yours,
Ira
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Re: EasyPeasy

Postby RBIngraham » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:32 pm

I've never really used any of the Avid consoles, never been a fan of Digidesign since they screwed PC users over on the Session 8 and that bias has stuck with me to their consoles as well. Didn't help any that I find Pro Tools to be about the worst possible DAW for theatre sound design work because of their years of refusal to have faster than real time rendering.

The using your Waves plug in thing is probably popular because so much of modern music production is reliant on some damn plug in or other to create the sound. And since so much music production is still done on Blow Tools it does kind of make sense that when you hit the road it's easier to use the same plug you used in the studio rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.

As for Digico, I didn't notice all that much need to use the mouse when I've sat at the console with mixers on shows. But then those shows are up and running and in my world once a show is open, you really only need faders, mutes and solos and you occasionally tweak a channel EQ. Also the one venue in town that uses SD9s has a keyboard and trackball below the desk on a slide out shelf. :-)

I will say that venue has two SD9s and they have been running for about 2.5 years now and they have not had any issues that I'm aware of. I certainly would have heard if the consoles were unreliable, even though those are not venues I work in for the most part. Of course theatre venues are probably the most forgiving of spaces the consoles are likely to be used in. Very little bouncing around, not out in the heat, most days used for a few hours and then shut off and typically well taken care of.

And see... I rarely enjoy working on a Soundcraft. I've not used a Vi series desk either so I can not speak to that model. But I've used plenty of their analog desks and the smaller digital ones. They almost always turn me off with things that I just don't find to be very intuitive or well labeled. But they do usually sound pretty good.

But that's just me... :-)
Richard B. Ingraham
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Re: EasyPeasy

Postby lowdbrent » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:33 pm

Holy cow, you are twisted. You don't like a completely different company, under different ownership, with completely different designers, engineers, represented by the best in the pro audio mixing community because of an unrelated, entry-level product from the 90s? Dude, you need help.

Most people who gripe about Avid consoles just don't have the business to pay for them, hence the bias. Avid is THE most tech rider friendly console in the USA. They are going to release a platform similar to S6 for live sound. It's going to get interesting....if Avid can survive.
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Re: EasyPeasy

Postby airickess » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:24 pm

lowdbrent wrote:Avid is THE most tech rider friendly console in the USA.
Funny, in the venues where I work I don't see a lot of Avid consoles come through. I see quite a lot of Digicos, though.
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Re: EasyPeasy

Postby IraSeigel » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:07 am

And as I talk to engineers who come thru the hall I work at, which has 3 Vi series consoles, I hear how easy it was for them to quickly get used to the Soundcraft, and how they're seeing them more and more in venues. The new(ish) Vi3000 is the first of their Vi systems that's really designed for touring. We'll see how they're marketing does, compared to the others. But if you haven't tried it, you should.

I'll take an M7 over a Digidesign for a one-off. I really don't like them.
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Re: EasyPeasy

Postby RBIngraham » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:27 am

lowdbrent wrote:Holy cow, you are twisted. You don't like a completely different company, under different ownership, with completely different designers, engineers, represented by the best in the pro audio mixing community because of an unrelated, entry-level product from the 90s? Dude, you need help.

Most people who gripe about Avid consoles just don't have the business to pay for them, hence the bias. Avid is THE most tech rider friendly console in the USA. They are going to release a platform similar to S6 for live sound. It's going to get interesting....if Avid can survive.



Say what you want. But perception is an important selling factor. Once you've been bitten by a dog, you're cautions of that dog from that point on. Even if logic tells you that the dog has now matured and probably won't bite anymore.

What I probably should have said is that my bias is against Digidesign as a company, not necessarily their consoles. I don't really care that their console line is a separate entity. It's still a Digidesgn product. But my bias against Digidesign and their crappy DAW has not made me really want to check out their live consoles or give them more than a cursory look. Even the more affordable ones.

Who are these best in the pro audio mixing community that you speak of? If you're talking about some rock and roll road dog, sorry... I couldn't give less of a shit about their opinions on which console to use. Not because I don't think they know what they are doing. But because I don't really care what someone else thinks about products unless I really know that person and can fully understand their perspective and why and how they formed their opinions. And you don't get that just because person X says it's a good desk and they are on the cover of some trade rag because they just happened to mix some big name on a tour.

I also see very few Digidesign consoles coming through the road houses. But then I don't frequent the arena touring scene. Digico and Yamaha are the clear favorites in the theatrical world (for the moment) with maybe Soundcraft as a distant third place.
Richard B. Ingraham
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Re: EasyPeasy

Postby Paul Henry » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:16 am

I know exactly what Richard means. Companies tend to have a philosophy or an approach that extends to all their products, and even if you haven't tried a specific product you can still tell a lot about it from the other products the company makes. Apple and Behringer are two great examples, I don't need to test every apple product to tell you they are all probably going to be solidly engineered products with a hefty price tag and a strong leaning towards attractive physical design, but with a very "walled garden" approach. Same with Behringer, fairly attractive externally, cheaply built, but decent bang for the buck in terms of features, quality control iffy.
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Re: EasyPeasy

Postby lowdbrent » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:05 pm

I did not say Avid workflow was for everyone. I think mixing by computer, touch screen or mouse is like grabbing some tongs to pick up a fork, to eat a salad. It is faster to go for the real tool you need. The Yamaha M7CL was great for this. All of the 48 faders are there to grab. I am installing two VI3000s in my church this month. I think it is spectacular. Two operators can use it at the same time. This is great for training. Two people cannot adjust channel gains on an M7CL at the same time.

BTW, I have a used M7CL-48 for sale.
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Re: EasyPeasy

Postby IraSeigel » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:53 am

lowdbrent wrote:... I am installing two VI3000s in my church this month. I think it is spectacular. Two operators can use it at the same time. This is great for training. Two people cannot adjust channel gains on an M7CL at the same time.
....


This is unexpected news! Did I miss an earlier post about this? If not, could you please say a little about the decision process that went into choosing the Vi3K? They're not cheap, and I would have assumed a Venice F or a QU-24 or the iLive would have been higher on the list of choices for a church. But I think you made an excellent choice. The fact that 2 operators can work simultaneously - one doing monitors and one doing mains, in some circumstances, is one of my favorite features of the desk. Nowhere else in the digital realm can you do that, as far as I know (except Studer or SSL).
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Re: EasyPeasy

Postby RBIngraham » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:02 pm

IraSeigel wrote:
This is unexpected news! Did I miss an earlier post about this? If not, could you please say a little about the decision process that went into choosing the Vi3K? They're not cheap, and I would have assumed a Venice F or a QU-24 or the iLive would have been higher on the list of choices for a church. But I think you made an excellent choice. The fact that 2 operators can work simultaneously - one doing monitors and one doing mains, in some circumstances, is one of my favorite features of the desk. Nowhere else in the digital realm can you do that, as far as I know (except Studer or SSL).


Clearly you're not thinking of the same "level" of "church" that Brent is probably working at. ;)

I thought the iLive would allow for multiple surfaces to talk to the same frame or network of frames as well. Or are we talking about something more slick than that when you say you can have 2 operators? I thought Digico could do that as well.

Of course I would point out that if you want to be technical about it, even an M7 can allow for that. I've had a board op at the console while I work on Studio Manager at the tech table for years now. Same idea really (again, unless I'm missing something). It's just that now days you can have actual surfaces at each workstation.

And of course you can do that same thing with AMP and/or SAC as well. You just get into the whole debate about what is an adequate control surfaces. While I would never mix a show (unless it was a very simple project) with just a mouse. I've always been faster at dialing in EQ, Dynamics and other stuff using Studio Manager and a mouse on the M7 than at the console itself. Even more so on the LS9. Some things worked better at the console and others are easier inside studio manager.
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