Question about SPL in a theater

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Question about SPL in a theater

Postby randyhyde » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:32 pm

I'm running a small box theater here in Riverside.
The sound booth is buried behind a wall (with a small window) making it nearly impossible to mix *sound* from the control room. Usually we run an iPad (remote control of an LS9-32) from the theater itself when sound quality is important (e.g., for musicals).

Big problem I'm having is that the sound in the control room is *way* down from what the audience is enduring. For the last half-dozen shows (usually musicals) I've had audience members complain about how loud it is. Sure, turn it down, right? Well, not so fast. Most often the *director* is the the control room (running videos, directing lights, etc.) and is constantly bitching about how it needs to be turned up because the actors are missing cues (I call BS, actors are just using that as an excuse because they are screwing up). I'm tired of subjecting the audience to overly loud sound just so the director can hear this at some level s/he likes in the control room (the director is already wearing a headset to communicate with lights and stage manager, so piping a monitor fill to her wouldn't work and we can't have a "director mix" in the control room as that would be too distracting for other people working in there).

Bottom line is this question: what is a good SPL for a typical musical (e.g., just finished AIDA)? I suspect that hitting 100 dB for two hours is not particularly bright. I'd be surprised to find that we're below 95 dB during anything other than the quietest musical passages. Would like an "industry best practice" on this so I can set some rules for future shows.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
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Re: Question about SPL in a theater

Postby jlepore » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:44 pm

1) The actors should not be using the mains for hearing their cues - there should be some form of monitors or stage sidefills for that. I suspect you're right - they are just looking for an excuse. Bottom line - speakers pointing away from them is not the best way of making them hear their cues.

2) You should have monitors in the booth, delayed to the main house PA, and set at such a level that brings you the same level as somewhere in the middle of the audience area. Too loud? That's what the audience would probably be saying. Your numbers sound like something that would make me walk out too. Touring with a major blues/rock act in these theater venues I average around 90 and peak at 97-100 for very brief moments in the show (about 15 seconds each, space well apart). At the end of the night, I have never gotten a complaint. Love the gig because of that. It's about the music, not the volume.
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Re: Question about SPL in a theater

Postby RBIngraham » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:04 pm

Joe has great comments about monitors. No matter what you do, stage monitors in musicals will heavily influence what the audience hears however they should have dedicated monitors. Sometimes those are as small and simple as some well placed tiny bookshelf speakers pointed back at them. However you do need to be careful about that. You don't too much stage volume or you'll have as much music in the lavs as you will voice, which will just start a volume war and will sound like open ass.

As for #2... I call BULLSHIT! Mixing from a control booth is never an option.. period! Mixing anything even close to Aida with a iPad is BULLSHIT! You need to mix line by line, which means Aida speaks, only her mic is open, Radames speaks, only his mic is open..... yes it means you are CONSTANTLY bringing one mic up and another mic down. Welcome to theatre sound mixing. :-) You can not do that on an iPad, I don't care what software you're using. :-)

The more you tell us about this place the more it just cracks my shit up. I have one suggestion... complete your current contract as best as possible and when they ask you back, tell them... sorry.. I'm booked. :-) It doesn't sound like it's worth the hassle. My first clue was when you said the director was in the booth on a headset..... forgive me, but what is this, high school theatre? Actually even most high schools I've worked with are more sophisticated than that. Directors should go home on opening night... not be in the control booth.

I mixed the first full blown, non workshop production of Love Janis (a musical about Janis Joplin, not to be confused with "An Evening with Janis Joplin") before it went to Chicago and then to Off Broadway. I often went went home with my ears slightly ringing during that show and I measured only around 100-105db peaks at the mix position. Granted... that was all the way in the back of the house. Don't blame me by the way, the powers that be wanted it that loud and the entire show was mixed around the lead guitar player. HOw the hell he endured the volume he did on stage I still don't know as he had his amp up on a road case at almost ear level and it was still loud as all hell. Anyway, I use that as my high water (or high SPL mark) since we got complaints that this show was too loud from some (typical theatre audience) and not loud enough from others (those there to hear Janis songs). Although it's rare that I have an SPL meter at FOH, on the occasions I have measured, it's more like 80 to 90 db with only very loud peaks at 100db and even that's fairly rare. Mid 90s peaks are far more common, unless perhaps you're touring and using ground stacks and you're measuring at the front row right in front of the ground stack.

Having said that, I believe it's all relative. Volume levels that is. A good example is Sweeney Todd with it's whistle. On one production the director insisted on having a live one. So I took care of it. But we got a lot of complaints about the whistle being too loud. But that is because it was a tad shrill. And it has "cues" where it happens in the middle of books scenes where it sticks out like a sore thumb. But no one every complained about the music being too loud, despite the fact that there is one point in the show where the orchestra is going full blast and the full chorus is singing one of the signature sections of music from the show and there is a whistle blast during that part. If you ask people if that thought the whistle was too loud if they thought that part was too loud, the answer was often no, that was great. Even though at that point we had the music cranked up so much it literally drowned out the whistle then. So it was actually louder than the whistle.
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Re: Question about SPL in a theater

Postby randyhyde » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:41 pm

RBIngraham wrote:Joe has great comments about monitors. No matter what you do, stage monitors in musicals will heavily influence what the audience hears however they should have dedicated monitors. Sometimes those are as small and simple as some well placed tiny bookshelf speakers pointed back at them. However you do need to be careful about that. You don't too much stage volume or you'll have as much music in the lavs as you will voice, which will just start a volume war and will sound like open ass.

They are flown above the performer's heads, but yeah, there were "monitors" hitting them dead on. In this theater I've been running a dual-PA arrangement with the band/orchestra in the upstage speakers (above the band, pointed at the active acting area on the stage). The vocals come out of a different set of speakers. I did this because running the vocals via speakers behind the actors (particularly with Countrymen headsets, when tend to have low gain-before-feedback) produces too much ringing.

As for #2... I call BULLSHIT! Mixing from a control booth is never an option.. period! Mixing anything even close to Aida with a iPad is BULLSHIT! You need to mix line by line, which means Aida speaks, only her mic is open, Radames speaks, only his mic is open..... yes it means you are CONSTANTLY bringing one mic up and another mic down. Welcome to theatre sound mixing. :-) You can not do that on an iPad, I don't care what software you're using. :-)

Actually, the way we mixed Aida, the cues were run on the LS9 in the booth and the mixing was done on the iPad down below. There are a ton of problems with this arrangement, but everything cannot be done from the iPad and moving the LS9 isn't an option (i.e., hard-wired snake). Yes, we only (mostly) have open mics when there is immediate dialog on those mics. This isn't perfect because syncing the scenes to the iPad from the LS9 is slooooooow (seems to take about 3 seconds) so scenes have to be chosen with this in mind. But there is no way to leave a mic on just because that person is on the stage -- too much ringing occurs in this situation.

FWIW, we had 8 wireless mics for this show and 8 additional inputs from the band (electronic drums, so only two inputs from the drums). Mixing the audio portion on the iPad wasn't *that* bad, other than the scene synchronization issue.

The more you tell us about this place the more it just cracks my shit up. I have one suggestion... complete your current contract as best as possible and when they ask you back, tell them... sorry.. I'm booked. :-) It doesn't sound like it's worth the hassle. My first clue was when you said the director was in the booth on a headset..... forgive me, but what is this, high school theatre?

Worse, pay to play.

OTOH, the pay is decent (and I get paid by the hour for my people), the work is indoors, and I'm not putting wear and tear on my gear. Also, not every production is by the aforementioned director (though she does a lot of shows there).

Actually even most high schools I've worked with are more sophisticated than that. Directors should go home on opening night... not be in the control booth.

I'm sure if they had the money to spend another couple of weeks in rehearsal before showing up at the theater this would actually work. Problem is, opening weekend is really no more than a full dress rehearsal :). That said, this (Aida) is one group. We work with several others...

I mixed the first full blown, non workshop production of Love Janis (a musical about Janis Joplin, not to be confused with "An Evening with Janis Joplin") before it went to Chicago and then to Off Broadway. I often went went home with my ears slightly ringing during that show and I measured only around 100-105db peaks at the mix position. Granted... that was all the way in the back of the house. Don't blame me by the way, the powers that be wanted it that loud and the entire show was mixed around the lead guitar player. HOw the hell he endured the volume he did on stage I still don't know as he had his amp up on a road case at almost ear level and it was still loud as all hell. Anyway, I use that as my high water (or high SPL mark) since we got complaints that this show was too loud from some (typical theatre audience) and not loud enough from others (those there to hear Janis songs).

True, but that's effectively a concert. I could see that being loud and I could live with that from the director. Something like Aida is another story altogether. I did not measure the SPL (no tool in the theater to do that). Next time I'll bring a cheap Radio Shack unit to get a basic idea of what's going on. However, I believe that 90 dB (average) should be good enough. Louder than that, and I'd imagine Cal-OSHA would have something to say about what we're subjecting these people to.

Although it's rare that I have an SPL meter at FOH, on the occasions I have measured, it's more like 80 to 90 db with only very loud peaks at 100db and even that's fairly rare. Mid 90s peaks are far more common, unless perhaps you're touring and using ground stacks and you're measuring at the front row right in front of the ground stack.

Thanks, that's what I really wanted to hear. I didn't measure Aida, but I'd guess it was well above the mid 90s anytime the (non-quiet sections) music was being played.
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Re: Question about SPL in a theater

Postby RBIngraham » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Just going by what you're describing, it sounds like you may be relying too much on the pair of speakers above the band for getting the band into the house. If you have those cranked up, then you're very likely blowing a bunch of band into your lavs which will then just muddy everything up. Also having speakers behind an actor does little to help them hear the music. It really needs to be in front of them. I typically shoot in from the sides of the stage if there is not good downstage positions, but even then I will try to put in smaller speakers just to get some high freq energy in front of them. Think a front fill speaker working for the actors rather than the audience.

Snakes can always be extended. It might not be an easy option, but moving the console is always an option, in my book. :-)

Pay to play? Wow... that's a new one to me... I'll make sure to avoid that nonsense... :-)

Modern musicals like Aida can get fairly loud and lets face it, very, very few if any modern musicals are written with the thought of balancing things out acoustically. More and more you look in a Broadway pit and everything is in it's own little plexi-iso booth. :-) If you can even look into the pit at all... many are now sealed up or even in some other room on the 3rd floor or something like that, completely remote. So they can have the brass blowing away during a vocal line and it's up to the sound designer to make it all sound good.

Bands on stage are always a pain in the ass unless they are completely electronic via DI box. (those are always fun to mute the band in the house and all you hear is tapping, some strumming, breathing and some folks counting to themselves... LOL)


And yes, speakers behind actors are not going to do shit for you from the standpoint of reinforcing vocals. They have to be out front of the actors as much as possible and the more distributed the system per audience zone the better... within reason of course.

Anyway, good luck... I'll add this to the list of "better you than me" projects. :-)
Richard B. Ingraham
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