NAAM

Discussions about the use and operation of SAC (Software Audio Console)

Re: NAAM

Postby jlepore » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:06 pm

Correct on all the pricing.

The S3L is 16-64 inputs depending on how many stage boxes you buy.
Seems to be limited to one engine card though which is a dealbreaker for most people. Hard enough fitting things in 2 on an SC48.
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Re: NAAM

Postby lowdbrent » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:22 pm

Avid systems are some of the most tech rider friendly. The bashers of Avid just don't have the revenue coming in to pay for them or attract the level of production demanding them. That is the same thing that happens in the studio biz. Bashers using Fruity Loops think they can pull off a motion picture mix on a single PC and music store junk.
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Re: NAAM

Postby RBIngraham » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:55 pm

In the end it really doesn't matter what desk you use to mix your show as long as it works for you. I get into this debate all the time with the gear snobs and knob heads of various parts of the industry. At the end of the day (or the show rather) most audience members couldn't give two shits what the show was mixed on. Or what gear the band used to record an album.

If I'm writing a spec for a road house then it matters what desk I pick out as your goal should be to pick out something that won't make every engineer coming through want to hunt you down and string you up. Or if I'm running a rental house, well then I better pick out the gear that clients actually want to rent or you'll be out of business soon.

But if I'm picking out what desk I want to mix a show on then the only one I need to please is myself and whomever I'm designing and mixing audio for. While I wouldn't say I've never had a director or production manager type care what equipment I use it is rare. At least in my experience all the clients care about is the end product and of course... how much is this going to cost. :-)

If I'm choosing gear for a venue that I personally will be the primary user of, then again... the only person I'm concerned with is myself. I couldn't care less what is or isn't rider friendly.

The only grey areas I see are folks like Randy where he often is the person mixing or someone working for him is, but he also occasionally has to satisfy a guest engineer. All I can say is I'm glad I don't have to worry about that. :-) Because then you have to make the choice of do I buy something I personally might not care for but will keep the occasional GE happy? Or do I just say fuck em'... I'm getting what I like.

The Avid desks may well be very rider friendly, but I will say this... I can not think of a single venue I've passed through (and granted I'm NOT a road guy... but I do get around a little bit) that has an Avid as a house desk. It is almost always Yamaha of some variety. That is what is in every road venue I can think of in Cleveland except maybe House of Blues. I don't know what they have, last time I was there I think it was still an analog Midas. The cheap venues seem to be embracing the Behringer crap for better or worse.

Of course you also have to keep in mind that until recently there really wasn't a whole hell of a lot of choice in the digital console realm unless you were spending either A LOT of money or your needs were small. It really hasn't been that long that we've had so many choices in the mid level console market. So a lot of that base of Yamaha units have been around for a while and many are getting long in the tooth. It will be interesting to see what they get replaced with.

I guess I still stand by the old adage that a good engineer should be able to get at least decent results with any piece of kit that is appropriate. Obviously if you walk into a space and it has a 20 year old bit to crap Mackie... you may have found your Waterloo... but if it's a decent desk you should be able to make it work. Granted... you also have to have the time to do so. And that is always the bigger catch because time is what costs the real money if you have people standing around waiting for you to figure out what the hell you're doing.

Sorry for the rant, but these types of console debates and particularly when absolutes start getting tossed out always rub me the wrong way.
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Re: NAAM

Postby IraSeigel » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:22 pm

Yeah, sorry. I shouldn't have started to argue about choice of consoles - or the choice of any piece of gear. It's always a useless discussion to have and serves no purpose except to piss someone off, which, as I noted in my response to Joe, was not my intent.
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Re: NAAM

Postby jlepore » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:00 pm

I just look at the practical side of touring as well. They typical schedule (when we arrive in a city in advance of the load-in) would be the crew gets to a venue about 90 minutes before part of the band arrives (drummer/anyone else that needs extra time). An hour after that, the full band arrives for soundcheck (which usually only lasts 30 minutes or less). I use soundcheck in the very general sense - they already expect everything to be mostly dialed in, and that is just their time to get used to the space and touch up the set for the night.

There is not time to build mixes from the ground up. On the occassions we have to do that, we have to arrange the schedule for longer times for each of those segments, and it's usually viewed as the crew having issues and taking away from the bands free time - something I hate doing.

When I am going in with a show file that I've worked many shows on, I know all I have to do is get the house to sound like I want it, and my file is going to take me 95% there - I can tweak a bit during check and be ready for the show - no pressure, no concerns. When I have to use new gear or no file, I have a much more stressful day - and everyone knows it - they can hear the difference too.
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Re: NAAM

Postby RBIngraham » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:42 pm

IraSeigel wrote:Yeah, sorry. I shouldn't have started to argue about choice of consoles - or the choice of any piece of gear. It's always a useless discussion to have and serves no purpose except to piss someone off, which, as I noted in my response to Joe, was not my intent.


I don't think anyone was getting pissed off. I was just commenting on/venting about where these debates usually end up.

As far as I can tell from your posts Ira you are working for the bands you mix. So my point was you should use whatever damn desk you like and that the act can afford. ;)

If you don't like Avid... don't use them. 8-)
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Re: NAAM

Postby RBIngraham » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:51 pm

jlepore wrote:I just look at the practical side of touring as well. They typical schedule (when we arrive in a city in advance of the load-in) would be the crew gets to a venue about 90 minutes before part of the band arrives (drummer/anyone else that needs extra time). An hour after that, the full band arrives for soundcheck (which usually only lasts 30 minutes or less). I use soundcheck in the very general sense - they already expect everything to be mostly dialed in, and that is just their time to get used to the space and touch up the set for the night.

There is not time to build mixes from the ground up. On the occassions we have to do that, we have to arrange the schedule for longer times for each of those segments, and it's usually viewed as the crew having issues and taking away from the bands free time - something I hate doing.

When I am going in with a show file that I've worked many shows on, I know all I have to do is get the house to sound like I want it, and my file is going to take me 95% there - I can tweak a bit during check and be ready for the show - no pressure, no concerns. When I have to use new gear or no file, I have a much more stressful day - and everyone knows it - they can hear the difference too.


Yep, and I totally get that. Which is why I said if you're walking into a new console or something you don't have a file for, you need the time to do your job correctly. Although I still say that audience wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The band might hear the difference. But the audience would only perhaps notice a difference in relation to the quality of the performance, which could of course be effected in relation to how smoothly your sound check went. But given the right amount of time to do the job I fully suspect you could make the show sound good whether you just popped your file into an Avid or Yamaha or you were forced to use an old Midas analog. You might be a lot more stressed out, but the audience shouldn't know that. And in the end that is who it should really all be about since they are the ones that ultimately pay everyone. Of course not all bands, production managers (or in my world directors, producers, musicians, actors) and such get that concept. :)

Of course if you're not given the right amount of time to do the job... well then that shouldn't be your fault, even though I'm sure it often is if your world is anything like mine. :roll:
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Re: NAMM

Postby IraSeigel » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:02 am

RBIngraham wrote:... Although I still say that audience wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The band might hear the difference. But the audience would only perhaps notice a difference in relation to the quality of the performance, which could of course be effected in relation to how smoothly your sound check went. ...


In my experience, the quality of the catering affects the quality of the show more than how smoothly soundcheck went. :P And for the "older" bands, the quality of their naptime.
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Re: NAAM

Postby jlepore » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:12 pm

:lol: :mrgreen: :lol:
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Re: NAMM

Postby Butch » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:39 pm

IraSeigel wrote:In my experience, the quality of the catering affects the quality of the show more than how smoothly soundcheck went. :P And for the "older" bands, the quality of their naptime.


This may be the most TRUE statment yet
Feed the band and crew well and make the show fun for them and not much else matters :D

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