Crossover & Aux sub questions

Discussions about the use and operation of SAC (Software Audio Console)

Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby tubetonez » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:13 pm

Getting ready for my first "big" gig, I hate that the old forum is offline. I'm trying to set up crossovers using the dual L/R plugin, I don't have my gear to test with yet.

1. If I use an Aux send as Aux sub, set the Return output to say Out 2. I gather I can put the L/R plugin in either the Aux FX or Out 2 FX? Is this a good way to do it, I like the aux sub functionality to add selective amounts to kick, bass, etc. Mono sub.

2. For fullrange stereo Mains with HPF at the sub xover frequencyh, if I patch in the L/R plugin on the Output channel is it in stereo?

Thanks
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Re: Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby BrentEvans » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:44 am

tubetonez wrote:1. If I use an Aux send as Aux sub, set the Return output to say Out 2. I gather I can put the L/R plugin in either the Aux FX or Out 2 FX? Is this a good way to do it, I like the aux sub functionality to add selective amounts to kick, bass, etc. Mono sub.

An aux send is one way to do it, which works perfectly well. You can also use the sub out from the surround section, which works about the same way, but you don't eat up an aux send. Both of these ways allow you to latch your sub main and top main faders together if you like. I prefer to keep routing and processing plugs prefader on the main out, and leave postfader for feedback EQs and dynamics plugs.

2. For fullrange stereo Mains with HPF at the sub xover frequencyh, if I patch in the L/R plugin on the Output channel is it in stereo?


Dual Linkwitz Reilly is in stereo, as are most VST plugs. Actually, if I recall correctly, nearly all routing paths in SAC are stereo, including the aux sends. You'll want to use the mono switch on your sub out channel to sum that to mono. You can then use both of those stereo outputs to feed subs if needed. The pan control on the output would pan the mono signal between subs if desired.
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Re: Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby jlepore » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:28 am

I had thought about using the sub and center channels in that 5.1 section a while ago for my subs and front fills and it had gone wonky on me during a check. Can't remember the exact issue anymore (it was when I first started using the product), so I never went back to it. I always do external processing, so it wouldn't have involved any plugs.

I typically just use aux 6 for my subs, and just a group output for front-fills (don't really need to remix them anyway - it's there or not there). That has always seemed to work fine.
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Re: Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby soundguy » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:23 pm

jlepore wrote:I typically just use aux 6 for my subs, and just a group output for front-fills (don't really need to remix them anyway - it's there or not there). That has always seemed to work fine.


This isn't mixer specific, but I usually give the front fills a "vocals only" type of mix (plus D.I.'d keyboards) on another aux. It allows me to push the fills a little harder to cover the front rows, without using up headroom. The folks down front are hearing enough guitars and drums off the stage.

This is in theater and ballroom type of venues with 4 or 5 small boxes on the lip. In an arena with bigger front fills, a full mix would be adequate.

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Re: Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby kruntz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:33 pm

jlepore wrote:I had thought about using the sub and center channels in that 5.1 section a while ago for my subs and front fills and it had gone wonky on me during a check.


We always use 5.1 for Sub and Front Fill.
The CPU load is almost identical to enabled Auxes, but it really seems straightforward...

Cheers.
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Re: Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby tubetonez » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:10 pm

BrentEvans wrote:
tubetonez wrote:1. If I use an Aux send as Aux sub, set the Return output to say Out 2. I gather I can put the L/R plugin in either the Aux FX or Out 2 FX? Is this a good way to do it, I like the aux sub functionality to add selective amounts to kick, bass, etc. Mono sub.

An aux send is one way to do it, which works perfectly well. You can also use the sub out from the surround section, which works about the same way, but you don't eat up an aux send. Both of these ways allow you to latch your sub main and top main faders together if you like. I prefer to keep routing and processing plugs prefader on the main out, and leave postfader for feedback EQs and dynamics plugs.


Thanks, I've been kind of leery of the surround panner - the skin I've been using doesn't even show them lol.
2. For fullrange stereo Mains with HPF at the sub xover frequencyh, if I patch in the L/R plugin on the Output channel is it in stereo?


Dual Linkwitz Reilly is in stereo, as are most VST plugs. Actually, if I recall correctly, nearly all routing paths in SAC are stereo, including the aux sends. You'll want to use the mono switch on your sub out channel to sum that to mono. You can then use both of those stereo outputs to feed subs if needed. The pan control on the output would pan the mono signal between subs if desired.


ok, then for my understanding of how to use mono outputs.... If I assign for example Output 1 to the sound card's 1-2 pair output panned left, and Output 2 assigned to the same 1-2 pair and panned right - will a stereo plugin inserted into Output 1 affect Output 2?

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Re: Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby jlepore » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:28 pm

No, it should not.

The plug in would effect virtual output channel 1 (which is a stereo channel). You then have assigned it to a mono output (physical output #1). It would not effect virtual output channel 2, or physical output #2.
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Re: Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby tubetonez » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:54 pm

jlepore wrote:No, it should not.

The plug in would effect virtual output channel 1 (which is a stereo channel). You then have assigned it to a mono output (physical output #1). It would not effect virtual output channel 2, or physical output #2.


Great, I appreciate it. I'll be able to hook up and test in the next couple of days, I'll probably have more questions lol.
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Re: Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby gdougherty » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:39 am

Another way to accomplish what you're looking for is with a monitor console tapped post-fade. It's pretty quick to jump to another mix, you only need to enable the channels you want to run aux-fed and it saves an aux on FOH if you want to keep a few effects patched and handy. It's also easier to see where your levels are at on a full mixer view across many channels.

Personally, I simply run mine as another output send and use the HPF and EQ to accomplish the variable bass levels on things I want in the subs. That's just my preference though since I often found myself goosing the sub for a little more oomph from the subs and then loosing the nice snap of the kick. It forced me out of that habit and I'm better for it now. It's not the "right" way, it just worked better for me.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

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Re: Crossover & Aux sub questions

Postby gdougherty » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:44 pm

Replying to a PM here:

JonniJi wrote:Hi There,

I read your post about how you setup your Sub.. I use Out1 for the Mains and Out2 for the Subs. I use Bob's EQ with a Low Cut Filter Cut of 110 on the Mains and High Cut Filter of 110 on the Sub.
Is that how you do it? What is your X-Over frequency?
Is there a better way?
I was interested in how you mentioned about keeping the 'punch' of the kick when you pushed the Sub-Out2.
Are there any Plugins that you would use on the Outs to help the sound?
Any of your input in this area would be greatly appreciated. :-)
Thanks,

-JonniJi
Note: I haven't used my SAC rig for almost 11months, then BOOM, I've done 6 shows in 4 weeks. I forgot just how good SAC sounds. It feels good to be back in the SAC drivers seat again.. ;-)


Christian Budde was kind enough to develop the Dual Linkwitz-Riley Filters VST plugin. For crossover purposes it's what you want to use. Also, please donate a few bucks to him as thanks for his contribution to the SAC community.
Drop one on the main out with a low-cut and another on the sub out with a high-cut (plus low-cut if you want it).
Your crossover frequency depends entirely on your system, so I won't bother sharing mine.

I don't push the sub output, I leave the main and sub out levels in the same relative balance unless I find I didn't get it right during setup. I may tweak that mid-gig, but not frequently. The idea is that channels needing subs route to both outputs, everything else doesn't. In that regard its the same as aux fed subs, except you don't tweak the channel level sent to the sub. If you've got too much bass on a channel, you use the channel strip EQ to correct that, just like on a full-range system. You get the clarity of aux-fed subs with more of the simplicity of a full-range setup.

Use whatever plugins you find necessary on your outputs. Typically, that would be some sort of FOH EQ plugin, maybe a light compressor/limiter. Depends on the processing I have in place after the output.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

g is for George
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