Need help understanding what I need

Discussions about the use and operation of SAC (Software Audio Console)

Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby Craig » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:05 pm

soundguy wrote:A day or two later ... after a couple more feature requests or bug fix requests, he took the forum down, and along with it, years of user input and documentation of problem solving. That search of legitimate problems and their solutions (or lack of solutions) is no longer available. Much of it was hardware specific for those considering different hardware choices.


This is the real pisser for me. Bob took a very valuable resource and threw it away, much like the IQS newsgroup.
-Craig
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby Koopdaddy » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:02 pm

Thanks everyone for the input.

I have downloaded the demo and played around with it a bit. I even took it to Church and had all my volunteers look at it and see if they would be comfortable operating with a setup like this and they all seemed positive about it. For the most part they commented that it seemed pretty straight forward and it would just take some time learning the interface (as with any new console). I really like the flexibility the SAC system offers.

We are looking at the Behringer X32 as its price range is hard to beat with the features it includes. I just wanted to be able to offer another alternative with a similar budget. Our current system remodel project is going to be minimal as we are looking at building a new facility in the near future. Which is why I think the X32 or SAC will be perfect "temp" solutions.

I had originally mentioned the Saffire Pro40 simply because I didn't know. :) I see now that there is really no need for it if using the Motu or RME Raydat or M-Audio 2626.

With regards to the Motu 2408, I see several mk1's available for really...any reason not to use the m1 vs m2/3 ?
I know next to nothing about outboard pre-amps so I am not sure what I need to look for with regards to specs...other than having an ADAT interface. How are Focusrite Optopre's? Behringer ADA8000, ART Tubeopto8's, etc? Any others you recommend?

I like having the equipment on the stage. I would still need to have a cd/ipod/pc input from FOH so I definitely think I should have at least one interface located there.

I have read through most of the user manual and there is one area I am still unclear about. How does the signal get patched from FOH mixer to Monitor Mixer 1 for example. By that I mean how do I make channel 1 on monitor mix 1 = aux 1? Am I completely confused and got this wrong?

Is there a way to lock system settings so that other users cannot change them without an admin access level?

Thanks again,
Jared
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby tubetonez » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:12 pm

Koopdaddy wrote:I like having the equipment on the stage. I would still need to have a cd/ipod/pc input from FOH so I definitely think I should have at least one interface located there.

You can't run an interface on a remote. The ability to play audio from FOH is something that many have come up with workaround solutions, the developer is/was supposedly working on a native plugin to do so. This would be limited to digital file formats, mp3 or wav. If you must have the ability to play a CD at FOH, you'd have to run audio back to the interfaces at stage either wired or wireless. I have been thinking about trying one of the new Wi wireless rigs for this purpose, fairly inexpensive and pretty impressive reviews & demos.

Koopdaddy wrote:I have read through most of the user manual and there is one area I am still unclear about. How does the signal get patched from FOH mixer to Monitor Mixer 1 for example. By that I mean how do I make channel 1 on monitor mix 1 = aux 1? Am I completely confused and got this wrong?

It taps at the software/driver level, the monitor mixes are not Aux sends. This and many other functions are not intuitive. It took a long time for me to even find the Monitor Mixer views, and I have many years of experience with various software in my "normal" IT gig. Many functions you cannot access without the proper key/mouse click combination. If the user manual were better written it would be easier to get up and running. A step-by-step tutorial would be an excellent project for this forum IMO, obviously you can't cover every scenario but it would be extremely helpful to not have to hunt for various tidbits when you run into a wall.
Koopdaddy wrote:Is there a way to lock system settings so that other users cannot change them without an admin access level?

The remote app cannot change system settings for the most part, and can be locked to view only, MON, or FOH access. The host computer will necessarily have all functions available, it could be locked via Windows password. What is attractive to me is it runs quite well on a small footprint XP install, so it isn't difficult to provide redundancy and back up. SAC itself is a portable app - nothing is written to the Windows registry, just copying the folder to a new machine will get you up and running provided you have the OS and soundcard drivers installed.
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby gdougherty » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:11 pm

From extensive use, here are a few brief thoughts.
In an install, host goes at FOH. There's no worry about big copper snakes and if you've got the budget the Appsys or Audiorails gear are great options. Appsys and the remote gain options are a real slick combo.

Host at FOH gets you full local use of VST plugins where you'll most often want to tweak them. It also puts the interfaces handy and where you often need additional line inputs and outputs for AV feeds, wireless, etc.

If you don't need anything approaching 32 channels now, I'd personally lean towards the X32 with the personal monitor mixing setup and a pair of stage boxes. It's a simple setup, the hardware and functions are supported all together from one manufacturer and there's no DIY aspect to it that could bite you in the rear.

If you're really looking at a long term solution, then SAC can also interface with the Behringer personal mixers, plus it can grow into a larger channel count down the road. The 25 mixers affords matrix type mixing you won't get in any other console for video feeds and other output needs.

In the budget range for flexibility and sound quality, SAC is still top of the heap. However, it's also a complex system and with complex needs can be daunting enough that casual users may not ever become truly comfortable.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

g is for George
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby jlklein » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:40 pm

Koopdaddy wrote:With regards to the Motu 2408, I see several mk1's available for really...any reason not to use the m1 vs m2/3 ?
I know next to nothing about outboard pre-amps so I am not sure what I need to look for with regards to specs...other than having an ADAT interface. How are Focusrite Optopre's? Behringer ADA8000, ART Tubeopto8's, etc? Any others you recommend?


The Mk1 has RCA analog ins and outs and can only do 20bit (IIRC), whereas the Mk2 and Mk3 use 1/4" TRS analog ins/outs and are 24bit. Otherwise they're pretty much the same, although the Mk3 can do up to 96khz sample rate, has a different front panel look at can do some SMPTE stuff. Most folks are using Mk2 or Mk3 for the TRS jacks and higher resolution, but pretty much everyone uses 48khz sample rate. 96khz simply doesn't buy you much for live sound unless you have an *extremely good* and expertly set up PA...which most of us just don't.

I like having the equipment on the stage. I would still need to have a cd/ipod/pc input from FOH so I definitely think I should have at least one interface located there.


Think hard about that for an installation. Not having access to your preamp input gain levels might not be a big deal if you do the same general thing week in and week out and no one changes their instrument settings, but if they do, you might want those input trim knobs where you can tweak them. If you already have stage to booth mic wiring, most people would say use it.

I have read through most of the user manual and there is one area I am still unclear about. How does the signal get patched from FOH mixer to Monitor Mixer 1 for example. By that I mean how do I make channel 1 on monitor mix 1 = aux 1? Am I completely confused and got this wrong?


Forget about using Auxes for monitor mixes, and just consider them for effects use. The monitor virtual mixers are much better as they can do the same thing as an aux send mix and more that you can't do with a traditional aux mix setup. Things like level meters, discrete effects on one monitor mix vs another and/or FOH, control of levels via a fader pack or arrow keys, mute groups, etc, etc.

Every virtual mixer can have 8 physical stereo outs, even though most folks only use the first stereo out to feed an amp, recording mix or in-ear monitor (FOH mix would obviously use more). All monitor mixes tap off of the FOH mix at your choice of points: before or after the trim control, before or after EQ, before or after dynamics and before or after the faders. All this is done in software. All actually outputs just come off of your preamp outputs (the MOTU outputs or the ADAT preamp outputs...assuming they have outputs). You choose where the mixer outputs go by choosing the output channel on the output channel. The name of the first output channel also becomes the name of the virtual mixer, i.e. if you name output 1 of virtual Monitor Mix 1 "Jeff's Monitor", then Monitor Mix 1 is now named "Jeff's Monitor".


HTH,
Jeff
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby soundguy » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:51 pm

jlklein wrote:The Mk1 has RCA analog ins and outs and can only do 20bit (IIRC), whereas the Mk2 and Mk3 use 1/4" TRS analog ins/outs and are 24bit. Otherwise they're pretty much the same, although the Mk3 can do up to 96khz sample rate, has a different front panel look at can do some SMPTE stuff.


RCA also means it is unbalanced.

I like having the equipment on the stage. I would still need to have a cd/ipod/pc input from FOH so I definitely think I should have at least one interface located there.


Think hard about that for an installation. Not having access to your preamp input gain levels might not be a big deal if you do the same general thing week in and week out and no one changes their instrument settings, but if they do, you might want those input trim knobs where you can tweak them. If you already have stage to booth mic wiring, most people would say use it.


Remote control pre-amps with both digital and multiple analog outs to eliminate splitters and multi-channel copper to FOH are available, but are a bit costly. Most of the new generation of digital desks from the major manufacturers all have remote controlled stage boxes that connect to FOH via Ethernet or similar protocol. So for a new installation, you need to consider whether starting off on the verge of obsolescence is worth the savings.

The new stuff coming out these days just blows away what was available a year or two ago, and the prices are coming down.

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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby Koopdaddy » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:06 am

Jeff,

I like having the equipment on the stage. I would still need to have a cd/ipod/pc input from FOH so I definitely think I should have at least one interface located there.


Think hard about that for an installation. Not having access to your preamp input gain levels might not be a big deal if you do the same general thing week in and week out and no one changes their instrument settings, but if they do, you might want those input trim knobs where you can tweak them. If you already have stage to booth mic wiring, most people would say use it.


HTH,
Jeff[/quote]

I have 7 mic lines going from stage to foh, which is simply not enough. By putting the equipment on stage I am hoping to kill two birds with one stone...increased connectivity and cat5 (or equivalent) to FOH. I don't have space for more copper or bulky snakes.

Basically this would be a fixed install and for the most part, the pre-amps should be fairly constant week to week. If the gains are set at the equipment that gives us enough playroom back at foh, I could live with that. It is not ideal but then everything about this remodel is not ideal. :)

THanks for the info on the Motu.

Jared
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby Koopdaddy » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:15 am

gdougherty wrote:If you don't need anything approaching 32 channels now, I'd personally lean towards the X32 with the personal monitor mixing setup and a pair of stage boxes. It's a simple setup, the hardware and functions are supported all together from one manufacturer and there's no DIY aspect to it that could bite you in the rear.



That is the other option we are considering and quite frankly may be our best option right now. I was just curious what it would cost to get into SAC and if it was a viable option.

SAC is a very flexible and powerful system, provided you put the design and effort into it. For a person like me or you that might be ok, but I am worried this might be a problem for our volunteers. If something goes wrong mid service, will they know what to do? Sure training helps, but i know something will happen sometime. The X32 is pretty much turnkey (we hope!). It may not be a perfect system, but it may satisfy our needs for the next couple years at least.
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby gdougherty » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:37 am

Koopdaddy wrote:
gdougherty wrote:If you don't need anything approaching 32 channels now, I'd personally lean towards the X32 with the personal monitor mixing setup and a pair of stage boxes. It's a simple setup, the hardware and functions are supported all together from one manufacturer and there's no DIY aspect to it that could bite you in the rear.



That is the other option we are considering and quite frankly may be our best option right now. I was just curious what it would cost to get into SAC and if it was a viable option.

SAC is a very flexible and powerful system, provided you put the design and effort into it. For a person like me or you that might be ok, but I am worried this might be a problem for our volunteers. If something goes wrong mid service, will they know what to do? Sure training helps, but i know something will happen sometime. The X32 is pretty much turnkey (we hope!). It may not be a perfect system, but it may satisfy our needs for the next couple years at least.


We split on our install and put 24 i/o onstage and 8 i/o at the booth. It's been enough for our needs. Monitor amps are side of stage and outs for those route to stage. FOH amps are at FOH for our odd layout. Solo and video feed eats up the rest of the FOH outputs. If you want to do some IEM mixes, they're all onstage for outputs. Every once in a while the onstage gain knobs are a pain, but it's not unworkable.

To do a proper SAC system that sidesteps most issues, you're looking at just over $3K and that's if you use long optical for your stage inputs. ADAT extension over CAT5 will run you another grand. You're still easily within an X32 range once you add another $3K in stage boxes plus another $1K in personal monitor mixers as an option. To do it with proper preamps adds another $1-2K to the SAC rig, but then your preamps are better than what's in an X32. They're also non-remotable and non-recallable unless you're willing to void warranty and install the remote preamp control hardware.

The base SAC setup estimate includes a decent i3 processor rackmount system, a BCF2000, a RayDAT for interface, 4 ADA8000's, a decent UPS (get one no matter what digital board you settle on) and your optical cabling. Maybe a pair of widescreen monitors. Step up to Profires or Focusrite preamps and the price jumps up, but so does quality. I prefer the front panel simplicity of the Profires.

With how ours is setup, we've had no issues other than hardware issues. Those were caused by the person originally paying the bill purchasing computer parts outside of my recommendation because he wanted to save a few bucks and favored AMD over Intel chips. He ended up with a mini board that put too much heat producing stuff right on top of each other and caused issues with the RayDAT.

Our volunteers don't dig into it much, but with a handful of simple scenes to control mute states it's easy enough for most anyone to babysit. Our biggest problem is lack of mixing experience and they'd probably stare at an analog board with a bad mix, just as much as they stare at SAC with a bad mix.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

g is for George
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby gdougherty » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:55 am

Did the math, you're at about $6K for system with Profire preamps, remote gain and 64 channels of ADAT extension.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

g is for George
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:10 pm
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