Need help understanding what I need

Discussions about the use and operation of SAC (Software Audio Console)

Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby Koopdaddy » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:45 am

Hi,

Thanks again for the insight.

Does the M-Audio Profire 2626 require an RME HDSPe RayDAT to hook up to the pc? The Profire has 8 mic/line inputs so since I am looking for a system with 32 inputs, I would need 3 additional mic preamps (Focusrite Optopre or Art TubeOpto8 for example) in order to reach the 32 input mark? And those 3 units would plug into the Profire?

So the signal path would be:
Source --> Mic Pre --> Profire --> PC

How many Profires will I need? I assume the 2626 signifies 26 i/o correct? Does that 26 include the 8 inputs or is it 26 + 8?

I apologize again for the noob questions. Just trying to make sure I completely understand how this works. With so many different options it can get a little confusing how to get the puzzle together.

Thanks,
Jared
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby gdougherty » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:54 pm

You're all confused. The Profire runs as either a full Firewire interface in its own right, in which case you can do 8 analog i/o, 16 ADAT i/o plus 2 spdif i/o and that's all you get in or out of SAC.

It can also run as a standalone AD/DA unit with 8 preamps and 8 line outputs. In that case you use it just like you would a ADA8000, Art TubeOpto, Focusrite OctoPre, etc.

If you wanted 32 channels of preamp, your reasonable options are an RME RayDAT or a MOTU setup with a PCI(e) card and two rackmount interfaces like the 24i/o, 2408, etc.

The MOTU 2408 allows you to expand to 48 channels of preamp down the road with no cost other than preamps. It also allows you to do 32 channels of preamp and DA on the Profires plus another 8-16 channels of TRS line level i/o off the rackmount interfaces themselves. You could either connect 24 channels of Profire to one interface and 8 channels to the second, leaving 8 channels of line level i/o on the one interface, or 16 channels of Profire to each interface, leaving 8 channels of line level i/o available on each interface for 16 additional i/o.

The RayDAT would require an additional PCIe slot and RayDAT card to expand.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

g is for George
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby Koopdaddy » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:59 pm

Next question..
What are the real world minimum pc specs I should be looking for when building the host PC? If anyone is willing to share their pc build that would be great.

So far I am leaning towards the Motu 2408 interface, and Art Tubeopto8 as preamps (I think!)

Also what is the max length for firewire cable before I would need extenders or convert to cat5?
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby mattseymour » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:38 pm

Lots of people have been using the fast core2 cpus, I've got a sandybridge i3 on a gigabyte ga-h61-s2pv rev2 board with dual channel ram using a motu card seems stable. Handles 72 channels, and all with eq and dynamics, and 4 monitor mixes with eq and dynamics on all 72 channels. That's about the limit at 64 buffers but frankly pretty good.
Some are still running p4 hosts, and but they're getting a bit long in the tooth now.

The above board and cpu are currently available.

Afaik the fire wire extenders do not work with motu audio wire.
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby gdougherty » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:50 am

+1, Audiowire is not FireWire and not compatible other than the cable. You're limited to a pretty short distance on those so you need to switch to cat5 if you're doing anything other than something in a nearby rack.

+100 on the new Core i series chips. The faster Core 2's are pricier these days as a premium upgrade option for older chips that share the 775 socket. For the same money or less you can get an i3 or i5 chip. I'm liking the 3Ghz turbo boost option on the 2.5Ghz i5 laptop I'm running. i3 doesn't have it, i5 and i7 do. It's pretty sensitive to kicking in on high loads and seems to stay on with a consistent load. I haven't found it to interfere with SAC, and SAC is exactly the kind of scenario it's meant for.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

g is for George
gdougherty
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:10 pm
Location: Westminster, CO

Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby Koopdaddy » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:04 am

gdougherty wrote:+1, Audiowire is not FireWire and not compatible other than the cable. You're limited to a pretty short distance on those so you need to switch to cat5 if you're doing anything other than something in a nearby rack.

+100 on the new Core i series chips. The faster Core 2's are pricier these days as a premium upgrade option for older chips that share the 775 socket. For the same money or less you can get an i3 or i5 chip. I'm liking the 3Ghz turbo boost option on the 2.5Ghz i5 laptop I'm running. i3 doesn't have it, i5 and i7 do. It's pretty sensitive to kicking in on high loads and seems to stay on with a consistent load. I haven't found it to interfere with SAC, and SAC is exactly the kind of scenario it's meant for.


Thanks,

I am looking into the ADX32B or ADX64B Pro as an option for extended from foh to stage.

If I want to set up multichannel recording, can I do that on the same host PC provided it has enough horsepower? For example run reaper along with sac to record rehearsals and live events. Or do I need to run a separate computer for that? I won't be doing any processing or editing while recording, just simply recording each track for later use (virtual soundcheck, etc).

If recording on the same computer doesn't work well, how (where) would I would I get the audio feed from in this system to send to another pc?
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby gdougherty » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:41 am

I'd go 64, just because it gives more flexibility and the ability to add more channels if you find it necessary.

With MOTU or RME interfaces you can easily multi-track all your inputs live. The overhead to do so is negligible. It may take some tweaking or adjustment however, as I did one iteration of SAC hardware where I was unable to do any disk activity without causing slipped buffers in SAC. It's very doable though and I regularly record 32 channels or so while mixing as many live.

With the ADAT extenders you could add another unit in the chain and plug the adat outputs into another adat interface.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

g is for George
gdougherty
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:10 pm
Location: Westminster, CO

Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby Koopdaddy » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:03 am

The RME HDSPe RayDAT can support a maximum of 4 devices correct? so 32 i/o ? If I want more than 32 I would need to add a second card?

Or should I go with the RME HDSP 9652 PCI Card? 3 mic pres directly into the card instead of going through a profire or motu.
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby mattseymour » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:21 pm

I went with MOTU over the rme cards precisely because of the flexibility to add more io with another audiowire interface rather than another pci card. It's not that one is better than the other really, they're just different. Two 2408 units into the 424pci card gives you 48i/o, 8 on each unit can be analogue or Adat (or Tdif if anyone actually uses that anymore) and adding a third 2408 takes you up to sac's 72 channel maximum

Bear in mind the appsys units are one way per lightpipe interface so with the 32 channel version you get 32 channels total, not each way. I have mine configure to work as a 24/8 snake
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Re: Need help understanding what I need

Postby gdougherty » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:37 pm

Koopdaddy wrote:The RME HDSPe RayDAT can support a maximum of 4 devices correct? so 32 i/o ? If I want more than 32 I would need to add a second card?

Or should I go with the RME HDSP 9652 PCI Card? 3 mic pres directly into the card instead of going through a profire or motu.


The 9652 has no preamps. It's an earlier 24 channel version of the RayDAT for all intents and purposes. You could get a pair of 9652's, but I'd lean away from older PCI interfaces. PCIe is where stuff is at now and PCI options will only become more limited down the road. That's a consideration if you ever need to replace a failed motherboard or find a need to upgrade the host.

RME vs MOTU for me comes down to a simple question. Do you need the rackspace or flexibility? MOTU eats 1U of rack space to feed in 24 channels of audio. A 48 channel system then carries 2U of overhead. The RME RayDAT is all internal and requiring ADAT output on a set of preamps instead of having analog options isn't as big a deal. Losing the analog outputs on the MOTU isn't as big a deal either since a RayDAT card isn't prohibitively expensive compared to new MOTU hardware. 64 channels of RayDAT runs about $1600, and you'd pay about that for a new 2408 mk3 core plus 2408 expansion which only gets 48 channels. You'd add another $600ish to bump up to 3 2408's to match and exceed the 2xRayDAT input capacity. For some it may be no big deal to eat up the rackspace with the MOTU gear, for others it may mean added cost and hassle in expanding rack space.

Many tend to buy preamps in those channel counts and the line i/o on the MOTU interfaces is an added bonus. Personally, I'd rather stay all optical for my inputs if I can manage it, but I really like the idea of MOTU building blocks in 24 channel sets to build the size system I need on a portable rig. The host and preamps can all live in separate racks with simple connections between them.

You'd accomplish similar things though with the ADAT extenders and you can even build smaller racks since the 64 channel version is essentially 2 of the 32 channel units in one rack space. So a pair of 16/16 racks with the 32 channel appsys units could feed into the singe 32/32 appsys unit in the host. If you needed more inputs than outputs you could go 24/8 in two stage racks and configure the host rack for 48/16 or any combination between. I've even looked at using the appsys boxes for distributing signal where necessary. You could put 8-16 outputs from an appsys mounted in the amp racks and just chain from one unit to the next. FOH could send a bundle of cat5 to the stage then and split signals off to wherever you need inputs and outputs.
http://softwareaudioconsole.wikidot.com The start of a wiki. It's slow going and there's a ton of info that should be in there yet.
Biggest item is the Command Reference on how to do most actions within SAC. It's 90% of what you need for UI proficiency.

g is for George
gdougherty
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:10 pm
Location: Westminster, CO

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