Is it all over for SAW?

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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby shmick » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:51 pm

Paul Henry wrote:
RBIngraham wrote:..you just have to download the extra chamber files and tweak things. .......


There's extra chamber files for RML Reverb??


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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby RBIngraham » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:19 pm

dominicperry wrote:
RBIngraham wrote:Dom, I think it has been all over for SAW for quite a while now.


Yeah, I know you're right. I just keep hoping. Lane automation drives me nuts. Bob's way of doing it is odd, but it suits me. Same as moving around the MT and dicing things up, I can do it really fast in SAW.

MidiWorkshop was always hateful.

Time to move on. I need to start enjoying the crashes in StudioOne. And it sounds like mud to me, but as we know, all DAWs are the same. It's in my head.........

I'm out of here. And there. Time for a new chapter.

Dominic


By lane automation, I assume you mean rubber band style curves you can grab, draw, etc... I personally vastly prefer that to the ugly stuff in SAW, but that is just my taste of çourse. Although that is certainly become the standard method, like it or not.

Sorry we won't see you around on either forum.

I tried to make more use of SAW when I first got it, rather than just as a SAC add on. But it just always gave me fits. I don't mind it for just recording and mixing music, with nothing more complex than simple overdubs here and there, but for intricate editing, composing, anything needing MIDI, synths, tempo based sync for plugs, you know... modern recording techniques... forget it. It is OK if all you want is the software equivelent of the large open reel multi-track, which makes sense as that is most likely what Bob was trying to replace at the time. But it is just way behind the times on any modern production tasks in my opinion. Of course, that is based on my working style, which is much more of a cut, copy, paste, step recording kind of thing. I've been doing the MIDI sequencer thing since the days of DOS, so for most of my personal work something like SAW just isn't the best tool.

I guess I fall somewhere in the middle on the "grump at Bob" scale. I don't feel ripped off per say, but I have been actively telling people buyer beware for some time now. And I am disappointed that in my opinion SAC never reached it's true potential and that Bob is not just letting folks know what is going on. If I am supposed to "enjoy the ride" I at least want to know where we are heading and where the next stop is at, in case I have to take a leak. Otherwise it kind of feels like agreeing to being kidnapped. Just to use a Bob metaphor. :roll:
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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby jlepore » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:51 pm

shmick wrote:
Paul Henry wrote:
RBIngraham wrote:..you just have to download the extra chamber files and tweak things. .......


There's extra chamber files for RML Reverb??


http://www.totalsonic.net/sawpages/reverbpresets.htm


That's great to know now that I don't use it anymore! Doh!
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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby soundguy » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:45 pm

dominicperry wrote:Time to move on. I need to start enjoying the crashes in StudioOne. And it sounds like mud to me, but as we know, all DAWs are the same. It's in my head.........


I have a friend who is a well respected engineer ... and the only person I know that uses StudioOne ... who claims it is by far the best sounding DAW he as ever used. He keeps telling me he can prove it, but he lives too far away to drive out there for his demo.

Me, being of the mind they are pretty much all the same ... and don't buy into the theory that "fixed point" MUST sound better than "floating point" because of the "rounding up" ... say it's all about the work flow, plug-in options and comfort level that makes it good or not.

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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby randyhyde » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:16 am

soundguy wrote:Either I'm missing your point, or you're missing mine. Saying that something dirt cheap like SAC is a good because of it's return on a $500 investment (plus computer and pre amp/coverters) is just plain silly.

That's like justifying a purchase of a $45 mic instead of the crowd pleasing SM57 at $90ish, because you got your money back in the first hour instead of the second hour. Or how about that $10 mic cable you picked up at Guitar Center instead of the $25 more robust version? Probably paid for that in the first twenty minutes ... and you can just toss it when it goes bad and buy another.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We understand. Unless we purchase a $300,000 console we're just not in the same class as you. So let's do a realistic analog. I can justify the purchase of a $90ish SM57 rather than a DPA mic at $1,800. Arguably, the DPA is going to produce better sound. In reality, though, the SM57 is actually quite good at the job (unlike your $45 mic example). Can you do better? Sure. Do you need to (particularly in live sound)? For some shows probably; for shows down in the trenches where most local and regional sound companies work, no.

Now, taking the time to consider whether or not spending $15,000-$25,000 .... or even $5k ... is a serious business consideration if you are being beat up on your daily rental rate. But buying the cheapest shit known to mankind that you can squeeze audio out of is not a serious ROI consideration.

Believe it or not, there is a pretty good industry built around shows and rental fees that can't justify the gear you're talking about. SAC competes reasonably well with boards in the sub-$10,000 range; arguably even those in the sub-$20,000 range.

It's disposable junk that can get the job done with a resale value of next to nothing.

You're right, it *is* disposable and it does have a resale value of next to nothing. And despite that, the ROI is great. Unlike expensive system that depend on being resold in order to recoup enough money (while there is still resale value), SAC has no resale value meaning you're able to keep on using it and making more and more money on it without having to worry about selling it before the price depreciates to the point you don't get a good ROI.

That can turn out to be a good thing like it has for you, or a bad thing if you have crashes due to poor design.
Soundguy

Your distaste for SAC is well known. Yes, some people do have problems with SAC. No question I do have some issues with SAC remote. However, since v2.7 I've never had a show-stopper problem with SAC. Granted, I'm careful (for example, I always run control surfaces on SAC remote so they don't bring the host down). I wouldn't claim SAC is rock solid, but I have done hundreds of shows with SAC and (since the days of 2.7) I've not had more than a momentary blip in the sound.

SAC does have lots of problems. The UI could be so much better and the issues with control surfaces are legion. Further, it's a no-name console and that can be a problem when you start doing larger acts. However, in the market that has adopted it (weekend warrior/owner-operator sound companies) it's actually quite a reasonable solution.

Come back to me and talk about ROI when you're spending your own money on the sound gear you use. Personally, I don't believe you personally purchase gear that is significantly better than what you can do with SAC for under $10,000. If you were, why in the hell would you be hanging around here beating up the low-end ankle-biter crowd?
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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby RBIngraham » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:10 am

Actually I think it is far easier to sell off the components of a SAC system than just about any console I can think of short of some legendary big buck studio desks. With the exception of the computer itself (which goes out date the minute you boot it up the first time) and recently the software itself (which seems to be harder to sell off these days if SAWbay is any indication) most of the system can easilly be split up and sold off. I never understand these folks that want to sell it as a package.

Heck I think I might have made $50 or so when I sold off my ADA units.

Anyway, point is, every other desk I have sold off would be for pennies on the dollar. With SAC I bet I could dump all the parts on eBay and lose very little of my investment.

Oh and Randy, a suggestion.... user control panel, enemies list works wonders...
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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby RBIngraham » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:14 am

jlepore wrote:
That's great to know now that I don't use it anymore! Doh!


Well you're not missing all that really.... its not like they turn it into a world class verb unit ot something. They are better than the defaults.
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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby jlepore » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:33 pm

I tend to use the waves plugs or some other free verbs... all sound infinitely better than his stock one.
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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby soundguy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:55 pm

randyhyde wrote:Yeah, yeah, yeah. We understand. Unless we purchase a $300,000 console we're just not in the same class as you.


So now you're trying to be "realistic", but being incredibly unrealistic. Not sure what fantasy land you're living in, but other than the overkill Midas XL8 which can be had for half that, most consoles *I* see are in the $20K-$50K range, not far from the A&H systems you frequently drool over on this board.
So let's do a realistic analog. I can justify the purchase of a $90ish SM57 rather than a DPA mic at $1,800.

Again, not realistic at all. Now I've used a few DPA mics on a live jazz concert with high profile musicians which was webcast, but only because I borrowed them directly from the DPA rep in exchange for a credit.

Most of the "high end" mics you'll find in a touring mic locker are in the $500 range such as a Shure KSM32 ... and a few larger companies will have a pair of 414s at about $1K each. From there it's downhill to the Shure and Senn dynamics. Of course a few wireless vocal mics are the exception.

Believe it or not, there is a pretty good industry built around shows and rental fees that can't justify the gear you're talking about. SAC competes reasonably well with boards in the sub-$10,000 range; arguably even those in the sub-$20,000 range.


I wasn't talking about any expensive gear ... YOU went there. My point was simply this ... and let me clarify. If something that costs $500 is considered a good ROI, then just about anything that cost *less* than $500 would be a better ROI, which is the majority of everything in your truck besides amps and speakers. If everything is a good ROI, then nothing in that price range is any better ROI than anything else.

Your distaste for SAC is well known.


As is your unconditional love. I think I've stated dozens of times that don't have a problem with SAC as the right tool for the right job such as a church or bar band gig, just not the concert stage rental market.

Come back to me and talk about ROI when you're spending your own money on the sound gear you use. Personally, I don't believe you personally purchase gear that is significantly better than what you can do with SAC for under $10,000.


Dude, I've been spending money on sound gear for 40 years, including a recently purchased PA ... and we're "talking" now. And you are just nuts to think that you can't buy a console "better" than SAC for $10K. Now this is where your buddy DF talks about useless features nobody gives a shit about to justify Bob L's "better than consoles costing hundreds of thousands of dollars" bullshit sales pitch that has failed his business. You can jump in here as well. And if I were to buy a console today, I think the B X32 at around $2.5K or the "core' with iPad under $1700 would smoke SAC in REAL WORLD application (not fantasy land applications based on useless features "no one else has").

For some outfits (like mine), the cost of training makes SAC a bad fit (I still have to personally attend most gigs where we use SAC because of the technical knowledge gap that exists; one of the reasons I am really interested in the A&H QU-24 board -- I can send a crew to a gig and not have to worry [as much] about something going wrong).
[/quote]

Here's another reason your "ROI" comments make no sense to me. How in the hell can you justify all of this "training" required (in your mind) to have someone set up a SAC system, and it's excessive expense? If it's true, and you have all of the "training" problems you have been complaining about FOR YEARS NOW, how can you possibly use the term "good ROI"?

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Re: Is it all over for SAW?

Postby RBIngraham » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:39 pm

soundguy wrote:
Your distaste for SAC is well known.


As is your unconditional love. I think I've stated dozens of times that don't have a problem with SAC as the right tool for the right job such as a church or bar band gig, just not the concert stage rental market.


If Randy's opinion of SAC is unconditional love, I'd hate to see a truly bitter user. Oh wait... I think I know one... :roll:


Dude, I've been spending money on sound gear for 40 years, including a recently purchased PA ... and we're "talking" now. And you are just nuts to think that you can't buy a console "better" than SAC for $10K. Now this is where your buddy DF talks about useless features nobody gives a shit about to justify Bob L's "better than consoles costing hundreds of thousands of dollars" bullshit sales pitch that has failed his business. You can jump in here as well. And if I were to buy a console today, I think the B X32 at around $2.5K or the "core' with iPad under $1700 would smoke SAC in REAL WORLD application (not fantasy land applications based on useless features "no one else has").



I guess I also live in fantasy land. Because I would take SAC any day over the X32 in any of it's flavors. At least for the work that I do. So either what I do isn't "real world", whatever the fuck that means. Or I guess it's OK to just forget complete segments of an industry because one doesn't happen to work in them? I would also take SAC over pretty much any of the under $10K desks. At least any that I have had a chance to use or look at. And most days I would even take it over an M7, which is more like a $20K desk. SAC has much better scene management than most of these desks (although the X32 update did throw a curve ball into that logic recently I will admit) can do higher channel counts and has much more routing flexibility.

I guess I just don't get why everything has to be so black and white with you. Either everyone love SAC or hates it? Nonsense. And anytime anyone disagrees with you they must be a Bob loving, Cool Aid drinking SAC lover? Also nonsense.

I'd take your opinions a lot more seriously if you would at least try to be objective about it and not go on the attack the minute someone points out a flaw in your logic or calls you out on something. Yeah, Randy's logic could be looked at as contradicting itself, but we all contradict ourselves sometimes.

But oh well, I'm sure, just like Bob, that will never change and I guess some missed the memo from Simpson admin about keeping in their corner? Or don't care.
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