Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

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Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby hclague » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:55 pm

Hi Joe and Brian ( or I guess All, really )

Although I haven't experienced the Solo delay bug yet myself, I was thinking that a possible work around would be to use the Scene capability in SAC for the cue wedge ( or IEM cue ).

Possible steps to do this:
1. Activate a second output on each monitor mix (output 2, 3, whatever) and assign that output to an unused pair of outputs on one of the preamps then wire that preamp output to your cue wedge.

2. Create a scene for each monitor mix that mutes the "cue mix" output on all mixes except the mix to be monitored, and Un-mutes the "cue mix" output on the mix to be monitored.

3. If you are using plugins on the Master mix output of your mixes, you would obviously have to change you Master output to be one of the outputs 9 through 16 and then route that output to both the actual monitor mix out and the 'Cue" out. so you would here adjustments

This should solve the problem right? Since you are not even touching SAC's solo bus at all.

Just trying to help with an interim solution, or maybe you're already doing this ;)

Hal
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Re: Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby jlepore » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:03 pm

I have actually tried sending things to other outputs when I first discovered this, to see if it was in the solo-chain or the device output chain - turns out it is in the solo chain.

Yes, I then tried creating a new mix just so I can bring single channels up so I can "solo" them.
I hadn't thought of using multiple outputs and using the internal summing feature to make that work. Figured if he can't mix audio to a single output, how is he ever going to mix multiple output sources into a sing output. I will try that next time.

It would be a crazy hack, and certainly something that would be hard to use (and means giving up the automatic functions of solo, such as it actually following what I'm looking at - could be dangerous to listen to one mix and inadvertenly change another). Certainly something I would like to see fixed, but I guess Bob doesn't want to share this fix with the rest of the paid customer base.
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Re: Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby Hkmorgan87 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:37 pm

I have my cue wedge setup on an unused mix. All of my mixes follow off mix 1. Whenever I want to hear an instrument I'll bring it up in my cue wedge. I also have a second output in each mix setup so I can hear each mix. I set up the second output to the outs for my cue wedge. I prefer that over using the solo bus, so I can have quick volume control. Also, I often have bands that play with headphones instead of iem or wedges, so I use my 4 channel headphone amp for them. Which usually leaves me with no room for my own headphones.
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Re: Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby Servant Digital » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:01 am

I'm trying to understand this bug i have never experienced it and we are heavy solo bus users both live and in Studio and many Different SAC systems

1. In the studio we have the solo bus routed with FOH to the Master Eng and Mon to the Producer desk as we would in live just a different name. For the Studio Monitor or Cue mix I use the scenes to Select the Genlec's , NS10 or the Bose.

I still have not had the delay appear, but there was a system that was running ADA8000 after the made the chip change that would mute the output. Turned on the dither and it was gone.

Please give a little more info on the delay when and where it occurs FOH - MON or both?
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Re: Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby shmick » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:03 am

Servant Digital wrote:I'm trying to understand this bug i have never experienced it and we are heavy solo bus users both live and in Studio and many Different SAC systems


From the old forum, Russell Landwehr posted:

I just duplicated this problem on my SAC rig.

There is definately an increasing latency in the solo signal with each solo-unsolo. (Beginning with no "apparent" latency in the first solo cycle.)

(I have no fx in my solo bus (I don't even know how!))

I tested by solo-unsoloing a channel in the FOH Mixer 30 and 60 times.
Also tested by doing the same in a monitor mixer.
Here is what I found:

1. The latency increase is GREATER at 128 samples per buffer than at 64.

2. The rate of latency increase REMAINS THE SAME when increasing the number of buffers.

3. If I "unsolo" with the master unsolo button at the top of the screen instead of the channel solo button, the latency increases at a LESSER RATE.

4. Solo cycling a channel in the monitor mixer increases the latency at a LESSER RATE.

5. If I solo a channel and leave it soloed while I toggle the solo button on a different channel there is NO LATENCY INCREASE.

6. The solo latency returns to zero when the engine is reset.

Hope this helps track down the problem.

Russell

and:

It takes somewhere between 225 and 325 solo-unsolos for it to reset to no latency. I tried it at 128 and 64 samples. It was random as to when it would reset, but it happened between 225 and 325 for both of them. Didn't feel like testing any more, but from what I remember about my earlier 1024 test, that 225-325 number seems about right.

I don't use solo much in my setup so it's not an issue for me, but I can see how this could be a problem for the REAL FOHEs out there.

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Re: Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby Yogi » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:26 am

I'd never seen this bug but I thought about something that might be preventing me from seeing it. I run my solo on a delay that is equal to the distance from the mains to the sound booth. Jeff, give this a try and maybe it would solve it. Put the studio delay in there and just give it say 10 ms. This would ensure it's not on the same sample cycle. It's worth a shot and won't cost you anything to try.
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Re: Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby jlepore » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:00 am

Sorry Yogi ... that won't work.

The delay amount is random, and it doesn't always take a lot of solo-unsolo invocations to occur. I have had it occur within a few solo's of restarting the engine.
It is random on when it starts and the amount of the delay ranges into the hundreds of milliseconds, making the entire solo bus unusable. If it was just FOH, I could probably get away with it. Sitting in monitor world hearing stage volume and sitting right behind the PA, there is no way I can hear my cue wedge when it is that far out of time (generally almost an upbeat to the live sound).

I first reported this over a year ago, got the standard "it's your system" bullshit answer from Bob. Then finally others ran into it. At last word, he "fixed" it, although that is useless as he never RELEASED it. So I am STILL sitting on a system that does not work for a monitor engineer. No matter what everyone else with "100% successs" says, you all have the same issue with your systems. If your systems are small enough not to have a monitor engineer, then you may not hit it, but it doesn't mean it's not still there.

I am not doing anything that the system is not designed and advertised to do.
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Re: Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby jlepore » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:01 am

Also .. even if Bob's RTA is patched on the solo bus, it will show the audio being delayed once the bug kicks in.
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Re: Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby shmick » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:01 am

jlepore wrote: No matter what everyone else with "100% successs" says, you all have the same issue with your systems. If your systems are small enough not to have a monitor engineer, then you may not hit it, but it doesn't mean it's not still there.

I am not doing anything that the system is not designed and advertised to do.


We have a dedicated monitor engineer, but in our case, all of the monitors are IEMs and the MON engineer engages the solo bus once and then allows the solo bus to chase the selected mon mix. Due to this setup, there is almost no need to disengage and re-engage the solo bus multiple times.
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Re: Possible Work around to the Solo delay bug?

Postby jlepore » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:08 am

That is the same way I run it. The only time I am not automatically listening to the output of the current mix is if I pull up an individual channel.

I DO bounce between my mixes quite often - I'm not a set it and ignore it guy - I want to know what's happening in everyone's mix all the time. Just because Mr guitar god has decided to double his volume is no excuse to blow the keyboard players ears out of his head - or wait for him to scream about it.

Other than sometimes the RTA, I never have anything in my solo buses for plugins. I almost always run the output of the SAC solo bus through another mixer to have a volume control, so I never really turn solo off once the show starts.
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